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On Liberty (1859) [pdf]

socialsciences.mcmaster.ca

91–100 of 110 posts

Re: On Liberty (1859) [pdf]

#91
post #24

This is, of course, an eloquent expression of a vital philosophy. We should be seriously grateful that it gained serious uptake through the 18th and 19th centuries, giving us(1) the democracy and freedom we enjoy today. Everyone should read it. However, critical thought about how to run a just, fair society should not stop with 1859. Particularly in light of events in the 20th century, and with observations of the fa…

Curious why posts like this get downvoted so often. Is there something I am missing? It seems like a reasonable statement, and whether you agree with it or not, it’s worded in a way to encourage discussion

I think it's this bit: "does not apply to all skin colors, genders or sexual orientations"

If he'd said "does not apply to all countries" he'd probably not get downvoted, but the idea that people of different sexes and races don't have equal freedom is a hotly contested political question in many countries.

Re: On Liberty (1859) [pdf]

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious why posts like this get downvoted so often. Is there something I am missing? It seems like a reasonable statement, and whether you agree with it or not, it’s worded in a way to encourage discussion

I think it's this bit: "does not apply to all skin colors, genders or sexual orientations" If he'd said "does not apply to all countries" he'd probably not get downvoted, but the idea that people of different sexes and races don't have equal freedom is a hotly contested political question in many countries.

> giving us(1) the democracy and freedom we enjoy today

I think the point is that not everybody benefitted equally. I don’t think that’s very contentious, we can just look at the civil rights movement or even women’s suffrage, both of which are relatively new things. It would seem that the benefits are very slowly evening out though - every couple of decades there is a noticeable improvement. It’s not as fast as would be ideal, but at light speed compared to most of human history (which has been pretty brutal over all)

Re: On Liberty (1859) [pdf]

#93
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an inequality of outcome, on the basis of race or sex is the best indicator one would have of an inequality of opportunity. It's good if you use it as an indicator, but it's currently used as "evidence" and as a justification to give certain advantages to certain groups under the (almost always unproven) assumption that there's inequality of opportunity. For example: quota laws, and affirmative action in general. Q…

Inequality "of outcome" is the best evidence one can have of inequality "of opportunity", and again, it was the primary evidence in the Brown v. Board of Education overturn of Plessy v. Ferguson. The distinction didn't hold water in 1954, and I don't think it holds water in 2020. Consistent inequality on the basis of sex or race is the principle evidence that there is inequality "of opportunity."

definitions: equality of opportunity = x equality of outcome = y

equation: y = f(x, [z1, z2, ...]) where z1, z2, ... are possibly other factors determining y

you seem to say that y = f(x)

You need to prove that z1, z2, ... don't exist and that y = f(x) has a causal relationship

Both can be proved or disproved through numbers. In case the numbers don't exist, one suspends judgement.

Re: On Liberty (1859) [pdf]

#94
post #68
post #12

Just a few of the ideas that this seminal text brought to the fore: - The Marketplace of Ideas - The Harm Principle - Utilitarianism as the moral mechanism of social policy One of my all-time favorite pieces of political philosophy. I wish more people (not just philosophers or political scientists) took the time to read it. Also consider checking out Hobbes' Leviathan [1] and Rousseau's On the Social Contract [2]. [1…

I just finished Rousseau's Social Contract and Discourses , and I really recommend reading the Discourses as they paint a harrowing picture of how any government -- including democracies -- can become bent to a particular will and therefore lose its Sovereign mandate: it will sound very much like the modern USA. Whether that is true is best left for another time. I'm currently reading the book's predecessor, John Loc…

Which translation was it that you enjoyed?

Re: On Liberty (1859) [pdf]

#95
post #18
post #2

Why is this trending right now?

Free speech crowd wants another thread to try and convince onlookers that banning people from online communities for people expressing "free speech" is a bad idea.

Perhaps. The free speech crowd isn't responsible for the current cultural shifts that certainly don't lead to better times for anyone.

Re: On Liberty (1859) [pdf]

#96
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just finished Rousseau's Social Contract and Discourses , and I really recommend reading the Discourses as they paint a harrowing picture of how any government -- including democracies -- can become bent to a particular will and therefore lose its Sovereign mandate: it will sound very much like the modern USA. Whether that is true is best left for another time. I'm currently reading the book's predecessor, John Loc…

Which translation was it that you enjoyed?

Of Rousseau? ISBN: 9781981974566. Translated with an introduction by G. D. H. Cole.

I did not do much research into different translations of this work nor the translator themselves, before purchasing this book.

Re: On Liberty (1859) [pdf]

#98
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not a mischaracterization. That is the platform of the trans positive groups. They say that sex and gender are divorced and anyone who does not agree with that are committing hate speech. Further there are those that advocate for fluidity of gender. They say that a single individual may float across the whole spectrum of gender in the same day. If I don’t use the proper pronoun at the right time for that person,…

> That is the platform of the trans positive groups. Please include a link to some of these platforms. > If I don’t use the proper pronoun at the right time for that person, again, I am committing hate speech. This is a big claim -- please share a reference. > If I say no one floats across the spectrum like that... What is your basis for saying this?

I don’t need a basis other than feelings now. However my feeling are invalid because they are not the currently beloved norms.

Re: On Liberty (1859) [pdf]

#99
post #82
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please aim higher with your comments. > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Oh but I did. The worse interpretation was that the commenter feels their liberty is constrained by current efforts to combat racism, sexism, sexual assault, etc.. Either way, invoking Mill is philosophical hogwash. Aim higher with your dishonest intellectualism.

> Either way, invoking Mill is philosophical hogwash.

There are more than two reasons that a link about Mill might have been posted. You've only mentioned two very pessimistic interpretations. I will grant that choosing the least pessimistic is a step in the right direction, but I want to point out this: there are many positive reasons why people value Mill. If you ask first, you might find them. You don't have to agree to ask. You can have a conversation without attacking.

So, please don't take this personally -- you can make your points without an attacking tone -- that's what I mean by aim higher. As in, strive to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Perhaps the irony here is that I may actually support many of the same causes as you. I've learned that using an abundance of grace when responding to people is not only kinder but leads to better outcomes. So, yes, I want to believe that you are capable of making a better, clearer, more persuasive claim.

For example, you could have written something like this: "Given this moment in the world, with a history of racism and abusive policing, with tragedy after tragedy, with a blatant lack of accountability, with with protests in the US, I am concerned that some people are grabbing onto concepts such as individual liberty without realizing that in the very founding of the US that rights come with responsibilities." You might add some quotes from Mill where he argues against narrowly individualistic misinterpretations of his philosophy.

> Aim higher with your dishonest intellectualism.

One definition of intellectualism is "the exercise of the intellect at the expense of the emotions."

Remember this: you don't know me. You assume a lot without asking questions. These issues are both emotional and intellectual to me. They work together.

All in all, I invite you to have a better conversation.

Re: On Liberty (1859) [pdf]

#100
post #59
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you please answer my other question: >> Utilitarianism as the moral mechanism of social policy > "Is this a quotation? A phrase from a particular work? Could you share the context?"

Alexis de Tocqueville in his Democracy in America said it quite well: "Democratic laws generally tend to promote the welfare of the greatest possible number; for they emanate from the majority of the citizens, who are subject to error, but who cannot have an interest opposed to their own advantage." This is, by definition, utilitarianism (greatest amount of good, least amount of bad, and all that). [1] http://xroads.…

Let's start here: I don't know what you mean by "moral mechanism" when you say "Utilitarianism as the moral mechanism of social policy".

I'm pretty sure you don't mean "moral mechanism" as used in this article: Davenport, D. Moral Mechanisms. Philos. Technol. 27, 47–60 (2014). https://doi.org/10.1007/s13347-013-0147-2

Regarding de Tocqueville:

> "Democratic laws generally tend to promote the welfare of the greatest possible number; for they emanate from the majority of the citizens, who are subject to error, but who cannot have an interest opposed to their own advantage."

I understand the central argument of the quote. However, I don't think it demonstrates a strong enough connection between utilitarianism and social policy to call it "the" moral mechanism, granting of course, I'm not exactly sure what you mean (see above), but I am thinking it is along the lines of "moral influence" or "moral foundation".

Also, the claim that citizens cannot have an interest opposed to their own advantage is, at least, overly simplistic. Yes, de Tocqueville qualifies it with "Democratic laws tend", but I don't think this is enough of a caveat. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he didn't didn't do an empirical study of legislation nor did he attempt to categorize the effects in a utilitarian framework.

So my responses to dT's claim: First, preference aggregation is non-obvious at best and quite controversial in practice. Second, we have to talk about time scales. Some policies are intended to have long-term benefits with short-term costs, for example. Third, those with political power have the ability to use it in ways that disadvantage others. How often this happens would require a proper research design, which (correct me if I'm wrong) dT did not do. I view his work as valuable but largely as a record of his observations while travelling. He was certainly not a neutral observer.

I'll add a different point: given the phrase "Utilitarianism as the moral mechanism of social policy", do you view it as a metaphor? In what sense are you using it -- trying to identify patterns through history?

When I read philosophy, I actively seek to contextualize it. For example, I ask:

(a) Are the terms clear (admitting it can take work to get the context);

(b) Is it a way of thinking about the world (i.e. a reframing)?;

(c) Does it offer explanatory power?;

(d) Does it offer predictive power?

Another way to capture these four questions is: "To what degree is a particular clear, coherent, and/or interpretable by others? How does it assist in thinking about the issue? Is it testable in some way, not necessarily through a strict scientific method?"

Hopefully this background gives you some context as to why I'm digging into this phrase. For the sake of argument, let me say (and let you respond) that all four lettered questions are hazy to me.

Ok, now a few remarks about the United States and its social policies over time:

In the US, I'd like to highlight some contributing factors to "how we got here" with regards to social policy: (1) the historical moment; namely, perceived injustice by the colonies inflicted by the British; (2) the influence of common law on US legal foundations; (3) the innovation, so to speak, of the US form of government; (4) a long, complex history of social policy in the US, which includes religious influences, shifting awareness and beliefs, a civil war, mobilization of voters, and ensuing legislation, waves of resistance to change, and so on.

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