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Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

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Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#261

Post by ngngngng »

gwd wrote: post #255
ngngngng wrote: post #177

I argued with a family member about this just the other day. She was trying to get a faculty member at a local university fired for saying something offensive on Twitter. I asked her what happens after we get him fired? Can he earn back the worthiness to again feed his family? Will he need to denounce his views or just stop spewing them publicly? Will he just need to collect unemployment for the rest of his life now…

> I asked her what happens after we get him fired? Can he earn back the worthiness to again feed his family? Will he need to denounce his views or just stop spewing them publicly? Will he just need to collect unemployment for the rest of his life now that we've deemed him a heretic unworthy of work? As someone who's a devout Christian, it's quite interesting to me to see how the same anti-patterns which plague zealou…

We're certainly witnessing a religion. Just one without mercy, repentance, or atonement.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#262

Post by vogre »

TuringTest wrote: post #104
AHappyCamper wrote: post #78

I understand that there are a lot of people who are hurting right now, and I empathize with their pain, but how can we share out most wonderful and beautiful ideas with each other or convey important information to the public if we believe there might be serious reprisals against us if we "say the wrong thing". For example, I personally helped work against slavery on the Black Market in the Middle East, and I wanted…

> how can we share out most wonderful and beautiful ideas with each other The trick is to create channels with limited audiences, where you can set an expectation of which ideas are acceptable and which are not.* It always has been, but the the arrival of new communication methods has disrupted the traditional channels, and now every idea is propagated to a much larger and looser audience, which aren't aware or don't…

You basically describe Soviet "obkoms". The commitee of people who decided what is ok to say/sing/write, and what is not.

Needless to say, they became corrupt very soon, because no one was allowed to say a word against them.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#263

Post by trabant00 »

Why are we beating around the bush even on anonymous platform like this one?

What do "conversations", language policing, social media activism, etc actually do to improve the situation? Where are the actual actions and involvements like volunteering for actual work in a poor community?

Why is the suggested action so often giving money? Buy this book about how to be a good white person, donate to local BLM chapter, support this twitter activist on Patreon, hire a racial issues consultant for a company seminar?

If anybody really cares about black lives they should be deeply concerned with gang violence, human trafficking, drugging minors, etc. Where are the conversations about that?

For me it is clear that a lot of individuals are taking advantage of a real problem for their own goals and purposes, even wiling to do more harm than good. And now we are debating whether it's worth to sacrifice certain freedoms not to offend them.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#264

Post by lazyjones »

YetAnotherNick wrote: post #130
raxxorrax wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can be certain that companies who did that will be reprimanded for it by consumers.

Google did it to James Damore. People celebrated it, as it opposes their beliefs even though many psychologist publicly said that the gender difference identified in the memo are science backed.

> People celebrated it

No, some people celebrated it. A noisy minority.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#265

Post by cglace »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #249
AHappyCamper wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We were dealing with life and death situations. The pressure is beyond intense. If you mess up, a girl will be locked in a cave for much of her life. It's not a "calm" environment where you can nitpick every term for political correctness. You just need to convey the info that you need. Re raising awareness, there is no way to say "We're trying to stop slavery in the Middle East and shut down the human Black Markets"…

Sorry, I don't understand this at all. You really can't spend the 30 seconds needed to think about "hmm, maybe be a bit careful about the words I'm using here in case my message gets lost in criticism of my language"? As others have said, finding a non-offensive synonym for "Black market" takes a single search, about 5 seconds. Is it really that time-critical? Where are you sending these messages that those 30 second…

Should we really have to research each word we use before using it?

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#266

Post by kiplkipl »

PopeDotNinja wrote: post #121
TuringTest wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how can we share out most wonderful and beautiful ideas with each other The trick is to create channels with limited audiences, where you can set an expectation of which ideas are acceptable and which are not.* It always has been, but the the arrival of new communication methods has disrupted the traditional channels, and now every idea is propagated to a much larger and looser audience, which aren't aware or don't…

How do you manage reading every code of conduct and honoring it? The trouble I'm having with social changes, expectations, per person pronouns, and other things is that managing all of these interactions can be a crushing amount of cognitive load. Now that I think about it, it's the same challenge I have with microservices. Formerly simple interactions are now hellza complicated. I'm not fighting the trend. I'm just…

If learning new pronouns was really that difficult, none of your peers would speak more than one language. This is just the way society deals with issues that are personal or to do with respect: you don't ask people why they use Ms., you don't ask why someone hasn't had children, you (probably) don't fistbump strangers, and you feel guilt when you forget someone's name. Similarly, in most of these cases, it's worse to be on the other side.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#267

Post by PopeDotNinja »

paulgb wrote: post #237
PopeDotNinja wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you manage reading every code of conduct and honoring it? The trouble I'm having with social changes, expectations, per person pronouns, and other things is that managing all of these interactions can be a crushing amount of cognitive load. Now that I think about it, it's the same challenge I have with microservices. Formerly simple interactions are now hellza complicated. I'm not fighting the trend. I'm just…

> The trouble I'm having with social changes, expectations, per person pronouns, and other things is that managing all of these interactions can be a crushing amount of cognitive load. Are per-person pronouns really such a big deal to manage? I've known more people who have changed their name in marriage than changed their pronouns.

I can't always remember what a person's name either. No one gives me crap for asking what their name is. I don't feel like asking what someone's pronouns are is a safe question yet.

I'm more concerned about getting crap from someone who only thinks there should only pronouns for their notion of binary genders. For now I just use "they/them" for any given person if I'm not sure, because it's safer than asking in many cases.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#268

Post by lkrubner »

ramblerman wrote: post #254
TuringTest wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how can we share out most wonderful and beautiful ideas with each other The trick is to create channels with limited audiences, where you can set an expectation of which ideas are acceptable and which are not.* It always has been, but the the arrival of new communication methods has disrupted the traditional channels, and now every idea is propagated to a much larger and looser audience, which aren't aware or don't…

You are describing a structured echo chamber. Or worse an internet of endless safe spaces to get just the view of the world that pleases you. I mean facebook is already doing this, on purpose or not (right now the blame is on the algorithms). Either way this is not the right way forward.

In what sense is this not the right way forward? This seems to be the trend that’s been with us for at least 20 years. People increasingly pick the news they want to hear.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#269

Post by mellosouls »

jstanley wrote: post #240
sam_goody wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On HN, if you disagree with a comment, you downvote it and punish the author. (Or, at least, that is the common way to respond, and for good reason - the only "disagree" button is the one that hurts the credit of the OP) This especially hurts new commenters, whose credit is fragile (and who don't know the cap on down-votes). Which keeps the conversation "safe", and the lurkers quiet. Cynical me thinks this is a refle…

> (Or, at least, that is the common way to respond, and for good reason - the only "disagree" button is the one that hurts the credit of the OP) I don't think that's a good reason. You should downvote if you think someone is arguing disingenuously or otherwise writing nonsense that doesn't belong on HN. If you merely disagree, you should upvote instead, and articulate your disagreement in a reply.

I agree with this. It's very frustrating to see people downvoted (even when I disagree with them) when they have articulated their argument eloquently or made an original point.

It happens a lot here, and it doesn't reflect well on those doing it IMO.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#270

Post by daffy »

ngngngng wrote: post #177

I argued with a family member about this just the other day. She was trying to get a faculty member at a local university fired for saying something offensive on Twitter. I asked her what happens after we get him fired? Can he earn back the worthiness to again feed his family? Will he need to denounce his views or just stop spewing them publicly? Will he just need to collect unemployment for the rest of his life now…

I'm curious, what exactly did he say?
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