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41,000,006 reasons why I think we're in a bubble

jacquesmattheij.com

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Re: 41,000,006 reasons why I think we're in a bubble

#72
post #30

I don't know about the rest of the world, but we sure are in a bubble here at Hacker News. There seems to be a real disconnect between what people want to build/invest in and what people in the real world actually need and want to pay for. Just as sample of what I've witnessed in the past few years: Ask HN: How do you like my file sharing app? Ask HN: How do you like my social app for niche ? Ask HN: How do you like…

B2C (and tools for programmers) is overrepresented amongst hackers because it is easier to gain domain knowledge in these territories especially for young hackers. I also think that B2B is still underrepresented, and I am more interested in that. But we should also note that solving Customer n's problem is very different than solving Customer M's problems at once where M is s big set of customers. The first is 'consulting', the second is building a product and a scalable startup. The second is much harder than the first, that may be also a reason for not being there that much B2B startups (but lots of consulatants).

Re: 41,000,006 reasons why I think we're in a bubble

#74
One reason I know we're not in a bubble: because everyone is saying we're in a bubble.

For you young whippersnappers who were too young to remember the 90's, a bubble is a manifestation of irrational exuberance- with (almost) everyone saying it's a whole new market, it doesn't matter how much the thing costs it's worth it to buy it because it's price is just going to keep going up up up, so do whatever you need to do to buy in now, because the longer you wait, the less you make.

In other words- it's a bubble when everyone is saying it's not a bubble. But if everyone is saying it IS a bubble, then it's not a bubble.

There is a difference between a healthy (or at least "not on death's doorstop") economy and a bubble.

Re: 41,000,006 reasons why I think we're in a bubble

#75
post #56
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- If it is going to take them a few years to get to their eventual, profitable, goal, why invest $41M now? Why not invest $20M now and another $21M when they're on the track that will be truly profitable, once they've demonstrated where they are going? - Is calling the investment "crazy" really offensive to the entrepreneurs? It is more a compliment to them than anything else. The investment may be crazy, but the ent…

I cannot point to an article about why this is a sound investment, I guess my entire point was that I do not understand why everyone has to jump all over this as to why it is a bad investment, since you have such a hilariously small data point to base any opinion on.

You assume that we have a small set of data points, which is a really bad assumption, even if you were just making it about me, personally. Assuming that the HN community commenting on this bubble/not bubble doesn't have a lot of experience is a bad idea. Even more so if you cannot point to a single article covering why this investment is sound.

Re: 41,000,006 reasons why I think we're in a bubble

#76
Make no mistake, a big factor in the creation / encouragement of recent bubbles has been super easy monetary policy that provides cheap and easy credit.

In '00 we had a market crash after a dramatic run up of stocks in general and tech in specific. In 1998-1999 rates were low and credit was easily available [1]. As we led up to the millennium changeover ("Y2K") unprecedented amounts of short term capital were made available to banks and other institutions to allow them to weather any run on banks that might occur [2]. This money made it out the the markets and proceeded to whip them into something that was similar to a drug fueled frenzy: the nasdaq has never come close to those levels again. Alan Greenspan later noted that he believed his actions played an important role in the boom/bust. Once the fed windows closed for Y2K and interest rates were pulled upwards quickly all the money disappeared. Coincidence?

After the dot.com bust targeted rates were lowered dramatically to attempt to smooth out the markets. Check out this chart of historical fed funds rates as it is really easy to spot the cycles [3]. The next bubble was in housing, and predictably it began to burst when interest rates were raised again.

Look at that chart again [3]. The last couple of years have seen the lowest interest rates that have ever been available since the chart started more than 50 years ago. They have been approximately 0 for some time. In addition, the quantitative easing programs that the fed has engaged in (currently, QE2 composed of $600BN worth of treasury debt purchases) has left monetary policy so easy that if it were a woman the village would be talking.

I've heard some confusion about how this money makes it into the markets. It's really quite simple. Many people and organizations who would normally put some of their money into safe debt like treasuries decide not to because they can't make any money off of it and they are concerned about the effects of inflation. This causes them to look for better investments that will have a chance of returning something decent. The explosion of angels in SV is directly related to this process - these geeks, unable to make a good return in some traditional markets switched to making private investments. If more money comes into a sector, valuations will naturally rise and the quality of the companies funded will likely fall (or at least that seems reasonable to me).

QE2 is scheduled to end June 30th, 2011. Unless it is followed by a "QE3" (which there is probably a strong chance of) monetary supply will contract and interest rates will rise. At some point fed target rates will need to rise as a response to current growing inflation in the commodity markets and the retail increases in food and gasoline. Once the fed signals that the party is over, a ton of this money is going to run for the exits [4]. Don't expect to be able to close your next round unless you're of stellar quality or can hold out for 2-3 years.

Or at least, that's one version of it.

Of course, no one whose business relies on the expansion of public and private equity prices will explain this to you. The reasons for that should be relatively obvious.

[NOTE: I am not an economist. I wasn't classically schooled in this stuff. I'm also not a tea partier nor do I have any particular political axe to grind here. I am just a coder who has been watching carefully since the dot-com crash when I took a very big haircut. Take it all for what it's worth]

[1] https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Dot_com_bubbl...

[2] http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id...

[3] https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Federal_funds...

[4] http://www.chrismartenson.com/martensonreport/coming-rout

Re: 41,000,006 reasons why I think we're in a bubble

#77
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The very fact you wouldn't know what to do with $40M is why you couldn't raise $40M, and they could.

Yes but knowing what you'd do with it and that being a good thing to do with it are different things. I don't see what they need $40m for that's going to deliver real value.

The would appear to have a coherent story as to why they need $40m, and they found some VCs who agree with them and think they'll make some money (normally 10x, right?) at the end of it all.

More power to 'em.

Re: 41,000,006 reasons why I think we're in a bubble

#78
Someone should track the Color Fund vs. the 43 participants in YCombinator W2011 class:

Round Color's (err) round up to $43m. Then say that Milner's 150K was actually $1m with the same terms (convertible debt). You'd have 2 investments of $43m. Track follow up rounds for the 43 YC alumni and Color and see which pot grew the most.

Re: 41,000,006 reasons why I think we're in a bubble

#79
post #55

We might be, but are bubbles always bad? Lots of money gets thrown around. More people get jobs. Ideas are everywhere. People get experience starting and running companies. Interpersonal and business networks are built. Lots of bad ideas are funded, sure, but a few great ones also emerge. We shouldn't condemn bubbles as automatically bad. We should be aware of them, though.

The problem with a bubble, is not that 'money is thrown around' by investors - but that the source of the money ends up being in public hands.

The founders get their investment from the investors. The investors get their money back when the company is acquired (or makes money).

In the early stages of a bubble, this process generally consists of 'money being thrown around' as you say.

However, due to the hype of the returns from these 'investments' (e.g. Facebook growth) - it attracts the public investors into wanting to get in on the 'action'.

Typically this is done through an IPO, which allows the public to come on board and potentially pay all previous investors / founders down the chain their money back (plus more).

However, even without the IPO's of the last bubble (and they may still come!) - the public money is finding a way in (e.g. Banks setting up Social Media Investment Funds). Not to mention any other general investment companies having some of their portfolio riding on 'internet based stocks'.

Then when the bubble eventually bursts (The trend reverses and everyone tries to get out while they can) - it is often the public investors which are left out of pocket / losing their homes / etc.

The point made at the end of the article is, if you are in a start up right now (or even a VC) - it is better to get out early, than to get greedy and end up getting burnt when it bursts (e.g. GroupOn).

Re: 41,000,006 reasons why I think we're in a bubble

#80

As someone else commented, Facebook could easily add a feature to show pictures from friends geotagged with your current location. (Not a perfect replacement but a lot of the magic.) Apple also appears to be getting aggressive in this space with the new version of mobile me. Color has an interesting vision, but I think traction as a photo sharing add-on is going to be tough once the social network and the mobile devi…

What is far more likely is for Color to try to get themselves acquired by Facebook.

If this is their real company strategy, the $41M investment actually makes sense.

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