Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive • Hacker News Board

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#161

Post by johnsonjo » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 9:21 AM UTC

yc-kraln wrote: post #107

cwhiz wrote: post #34

Shouting people down in public and on the internet doesn’t change opinions. People just talk more quietly or take more care with whom they share their thoughts and opinions. Cancel culture, outrage culture, and the general “social justice” movement is not much more than a wide scale attempt to silence dissenting thought. Build your own bubble, and shout down anyone who thinks or speaks differently. Yell and call it “…

I don't find it to be controversial that questioning someone's humanity or personhood isn't simply "offensive." I find it very surprising that people chanting anti-Semitic nonsense continue to find acceptance and defenders in the United States. To have a tolerant and open society you need to be intolerant to those who are intolerant. Why is this new or subject to debate?

I agree with you and right now antifa and BLM are the ones preaching intolerant rhetoric. They can’t for the life of them figure out that we just need to put the past behind us and see that we really have it good right now. They don’t see how much toleration they get despite their intolerance of American Principles, the founders of America, and capitalism. I even heard recently from Larry Elder’s interview on Great American Thinkers (I think that’s what it was called.) that BLM is anti Israel which shows that they are anti Semitic themselves. BLM would have every white man or woman acknowledge the sins of their forefathers as if they were their own.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#162

Post by precisioncoder » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 9:23 AM UTC

thr999978797 wrote: post #134

legostormtroopr wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It implies Floyd somehow deserved to be shot in the back and killed. No it doesn't. This is wild hyperbole. No one deserves to be shot in the back. However, people are painting him out to be an angel - quite literally there are multiple artworks of George Floyd with a halo and wings [1]. The reality is he was human, and one with a complicated criminal past who was jailed 8 times [2] including for drug offenses. Is…

It's maybe important to note that the phrase 'He was no angel' is a common (extremely dark and sarcastic) joke in left-leaning circles around these kind of tragic murders because there is always, without fail, some right-wing effort to paint the victim as some sort of low-life who had it coming one way or the other. Let's be clear: no one, regardless of how much they've fucked up in their lives, deserves to be murder…

"deserve no quarter in civilized discourse." This is a dangerous opinion. I would argue that the entire point of civilized discourse is to provide quarter for even opinions you radically disagree with, after all people hold these opinions and isn't discussing them in a civilized manner rather than dismissing and villainizing the people who hold them the only way to progress? Otherwise you have two sides that aren't discussing anything with each other and resort to violence, legal challenges, and pressure on employers rather than attempting to connect with each other and share another view.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#163

Post by Seb-C » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 9:23 AM UTC

gentleman11 wrote: post #65

There are a lot of downvoted posts in this thread that make reasonable arguments and that are promoting discussion. I disagree with a lot of them, but it’s awkward for this to be a story where people are heavily downvoting people they disagree with

I just spent 5 minutes upvoting every grayed-out comment that had at least substantial content in this page. Even the ones I disagree with.

    I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend your right to say it

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#164

Post by AlexTWithBeard » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 9:24 AM UTC

rini17 wrote: post #148

scarmig wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a fan of easy ability to downvote and upvote. What I would be interested in is a more sophisticated ordering than by net number of votes. For example, I'm sure some people's upvotes correlate well with my own (and probably some people's downvotes correlate with my upvotes!) If comments could somehow be ordered by how likely I am to upvote them, based on historical correlations between my and others' votes, that s…

If we must have the one-click convenience (I'm not convinced it's necessary) I'd prefer to have few labels like "I disagree" "Not true" "Off topic" "Pls read the article" "Disgusting" etc. instead of downvote button, perhaps also similar for upvote.

Or may be both up- and downvoted messages should make it to the top, while ignored messages should slowly sink?

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#165

Post by kgwgk » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 9:28 AM UTC

Mangalor wrote: post #151

YetAnotherNick wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google did it to James Damore. People celebrated it, as it opposes their beliefs even though many psychologist publicly said that the gender difference identified in the memo are science backed.

Damore wrote an essay basically arguing women and minorities should be incapable of joining the software profession based on their genetics. The effect of which would silence both their work rights and free speech rights. Google, a private corporation, not a government, decided to stop contracting with him, as they have women and minorities on staff whose employment output likely outweighs his personal need to write…

> Damore wrote an essay basically arguing ...

Q.E.D.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#166

Post by darkblackcorner » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 9:30 AM UTC

AHappyCamper wrote: post #78

I understand that there are a lot of people who are hurting right now, and I empathize with their pain, but how can we share out most wonderful and beautiful ideas with each other or convey important information to the public if we believe there might be serious reprisals against us if we "say the wrong thing". For example, I personally helped work against slavery on the Black Market in the Middle East, and I wanted…

Context is everything.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#167

Post by TheSpiceIsLife » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 9:30 AM UTC

AHappyCamper wrote: post #86

imgabe wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the issue is that some people consider any speech they disagree with as a threat of violence or "endangering my safety".

Again, I empathize with the feelings of people who may feel emotionally threatened by a derogatory comment, but some speech deals with people whose lives are in imminent mortal danger (e.g. those about to be sold on Black Market) and if we can't quickly discuss their cases and potential responses to rescue them, then they will be doomed to a life of untold misery. In such situations, there is no time to filter every…

Could you just say “slave market” or “illegal market”?

Of course, black in this context refers to the transactions being performed in the shadows, and has nothing to do with the colour of the skin of the participants in the market.

It’s all a bit absurd, but it’s also a trivial change to adopt.

And now I’ve offended adopties. I jest.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#168

Post by zarkov99 » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 9:31 AM UTC

TuringTest wrote: post #104

AHappyCamper wrote: post #78

I understand that there are a lot of people who are hurting right now, and I empathize with their pain, but how can we share out most wonderful and beautiful ideas with each other or convey important information to the public if we believe there might be serious reprisals against us if we "say the wrong thing". For example, I personally helped work against slavery on the Black Market in the Middle East, and I wanted…

> how can we share out most wonderful and beautiful ideas with each other The trick is to create channels with limited audiences, where you can set an expectation of which ideas are acceptable and which are not.* It always has been, but the the arrival of new communication methods has disrupted the traditional channels, and now every idea is propagated to a much larger and looser audience, which aren't aware or don't…

Wouldn't it be better ti provide people the tools to create their own channels, through personalized filtering algorithms? The idea that a central authority gets to decide what is acceptable and what is not is, in my view, only acceptable in extreme cases which are already covered by law.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#169

Post by raxxorrax » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 9:37 AM UTC

YetAnotherNick wrote: post #130

raxxorrax wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can be certain that companies who did that will be reprimanded for it by consumers.

Google did it to James Damore. People celebrated it, as it opposes their beliefs even though many psychologist publicly said that the gender difference identified in the memo are science backed.

I think it was wrong to fire him and that he genuinely had no ill intend. More detrimental are voices that attest pervasive sexism in the industry and that women are oppressed by computer nerds, but it is no competition.

It was in conflict with the goals of management to get more women into tech. I also think such a memo (haven't read it) can put women under more scrutiny, even if it describes general trends that might not be applicable to individuals.

I think he is someone who can easily make the distinction in contrast to his accusers and everyone who studied computer science knows the demographics. Discrimination can be ruled out as a main factor easily. But even if the opinion of his accusers is dead wrong on all levels, management has decided that employment is not beneficial anymore. Science or not.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#170

Post by Mangalor » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 9:38 AM UTC

cheschire wrote: post #71

the_resistence wrote: post #3

Regrettably, that is what's lost in all of this. Protesters against other opinions and belief systems strongly defend free speech so long as you are saying what they approve of.

And this causes virtue signaling on the part of companies, which then causes employees' livelihoods to be directly tied to their ability to express acceptable beliefs in the correct way.

> causes employees' livelihoods to be directly tied to their ability to express acceptable beliefs in the correct way

You mean like how underrepresented groups regularly experience the workplace already?