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What vertical farming and ag startups don't understand about agriculture

thinkingagriculture.io

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Re: What vertical farming and ag startups don't understand about agriculture

#201

Post by philipkglass »

danans wrote: post #164

> Current agriculture doesn’t need an artificial energy source I agree that vertical farms have their limits for producing certain important products like grains, but current agriculture does require a massive artificial input in the form of petroleum based fertilizers (via the Haber-Bosch process) - to say nothing of large amount of diesel used to transport agricultural products from rural growing areas to market in…

The energetically expensive input to the Haber-Bosch process is hydrogen. At present hydrogen is predominantly manufactured by steam reforming of fossil fuels, which produces CO2 as a byproduct. Hydrogen can also be produced cleanly by water electrolysis powered with clean electricity.

I actually think that Haber-Bosch plants will predominantly use clean electrolytic hydrogen before farm machinery becomes predominantly electric. Farm machinery has a very slow replacement cycle. Some of my farming relatives are still running diesel powered machines built in the 1930s.

Re: What vertical farming and ag startups don't understand about agriculture

#202

Post by valboa »

antocv wrote: post #122
alisson wrote: post #42

Around 6 years ago I quit my job as a developer to dive into agriculture. I learned about syntropic agriculture systems and felt in love with it because: - You are able to work with space and time in a way to maximize yield (not 1 crop yield, but but multi crop) - It focus on being biodiverse - It builds forests So in this systems you will see rows of trees intercalated with rows of beans, corn, soy anything "weedy"…

Hey man no way, you have been living my dream! First I wanted to just grow berries, then I realized, pesticides and so on, so add another plant to fight that attacker instead of pesticide, then add another plant to protect that plant by being attractive for those other bugs which kill the bad bugs. Then I realized, this would eventually be a forrest with just more berries and edible fruits than normal. Thats where th…

Smart Farming is the way! You need to concentrate in flavor and quality. Yield is a race to the bottom.

Re: What vertical farming and ag startups don't understand about agriculture

#203

Post by Gatsky »

kumarski wrote: post #158

My father is an ag soil chemist of 50+ years. I'm an industrial systems eng. w/ a specialty in polymer-textile-fiber engineering. (Mostly useless skillsets in the US now) Gonna share a few lessons here about agriculture that I try to convey to EECS, econ, Neuroscience, and the web developer crowd. - You can only grow non-calorically dense foods in vertical farms - It takes 10-14 kwh/1000 gallons of water to desalinat…

Great comment, thanks.

HN just keeps delivering. It is almost impossible to believe how much embedded technical knowledge is lurking here. You could colonise Mars with it.

Re: What vertical farming and ag startups don't understand about agriculture

#204

Post by gcbw3 »

hyko wrote: post #130
mathgladiator wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what advice would you offer to another developer that longs to get into agriculture?

Buy a copy of Farming Simulator. Agriculture is a brutal, pitiless world of perfect competition, commoditisation, and winner-takes-all consolidation. There’s an old farming joke: “What would you do if you won the lottery? I’d farm until it was all gone”.

farm sim is the most broken game ever.

Even with the more realistic mods, which brings the most basic things like seasons(!!!), it is a futile fight against the bugs and bad UI.

farm sim is nothing but an advert for tractor brands.

Watch a couple youtube videos but NEVER pay it. you've been warned :)

Re: What vertical farming and ag startups don't understand about agriculture

#205

Post by valboa »

newyankee wrote: post #124
alisson wrote: post #42

Around 6 years ago I quit my job as a developer to dive into agriculture. I learned about syntropic agriculture systems and felt in love with it because: - You are able to work with space and time in a way to maximize yield (not 1 crop yield, but but multi crop) - It focus on being biodiverse - It builds forests So in this systems you will see rows of trees intercalated with rows of beans, corn, soy anything "weedy"…

I am thinking of a similar route, as a data scientist i am eager to know what graduate level courses would you recommend ? Especially for agriculture in cold climate (Canada )

If you want to learn about agriculture, find a farm you can support close to you, and enroll in a summer program. You will learn more if you get your hands dirty.

Re: What vertical farming and ag startups don't understand about agriculture

#206

Post by primroot »

dustyleary wrote: post #127
lm28469 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With automation, it seems obvious we'll be seeing way more unemployment than what's happening right now I fully support the underlying message, but automation has been happening at large scale for 70+ years now, unemployment rate doesn't follow automation, jobs are just shifted to other industries/sectors.

In other words, "Automation hasn't increased unemployment in the past, even though some pesky scientists and economists said that it would eventually be a problem. Some of those people were wrong in the past, therefore automation will never increase unemployment, ever."

Contrast this with J.S. Mill.

"Hitherto it is questionable if all the mechanical inventions yet made have lightened the day's toil of any human being. They have enabled a greater population to live the same life of drudgery and imprisonment, and an increased number of manufacturers and others to make fortunes. They have increased the comforts of the middle classes. But they have not yet begun to effect those great changes in human destiny, which it is in their nature and in their futurity to accomplish. Only when, in addition to just institutions, the increase of mankind shall be under the deliberate guidance of judicious foresight, can the conquests made from the powers of nature by the intellect and energy of scientific discoverers, become the common property of the species, and the means of improving and elevating the universal lot. "

Re: What vertical farming and ag startups don't understand about agriculture

#207

Post by bgroat »

eloff wrote: post #197
mtgp1000 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you can't grow potatoes vertically? Can you elaborate? Is it a function of physiology, i.e. calorie dense vegetables need far more leaves and supporting stems than can be practically stacked vertically?

I imagine space is a factor, but energy will be a big one as well. Calorie dense foods will likely need more space and energy (light) inputs. Vertical farms are very water efficient, so I don't think that matters much. Vertical farms make a lot more sense with fresh vegetables like leafy greens that grow quickly, command high prices if grown organically, and benefit from being closer to market. Potatoes are the exact…

Can you expand on this?

I get that to store a calorie in a potato I need to supply a calorie of energy from somewhere else.

But why is fusion power required instead of better UV lamps in my vertical farm? (Assuming I had enough electricity to run them)

Re: What vertical farming and ag startups don't understand about agriculture

#208

Post by ddxxdd »

lurquer wrote: post #183
infogulch wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of these sound reasonable, but I've never bought into the "grow vertically" idea. It seems to ignore physics . Sunlight is delivered as electromagnetic power (watts) proportional to surface area . Plants naturally grow on the surface of the earth, and therefore receive a small proportion of that power which they use to convert CO2 into sugars and eventually plant mass which we eat. Stacking a bunch of plants on…

Every once in a while you see some high school science fair project where a kid has the brilliant idea of making 3D solar cells... maybe little pyramids or ridges instead if a flat plane, to capture light from all angles. The kid gets patted on the head. Those who know better, immediately recognize there is no great increase in power obtained as the 'shadows' caused by the raises structure invariably decrease the eff…

It's been a few years since I've followed vertical farming, but I have recalled an argument being made that an artificial light source can be made efficiently by using a single-wavelength, super-efficient LED with a specific color that stimulates photosynthesis.

On the other hand, I've also read (old, long-lost) sources that state that the energy cost per loaf of bread is about $10 for indoor farming, vs $5 for outdoor farming.

These specialized lights won't save vertical farming today, but I will keep following the progress. If nothing else brings value to vertical farming, the fact remains that local food independence is valuable; growing food in a dense apartment or a dense city will pay dividends in the event of large-scale famine or civil unrest.

Re: What vertical farming and ag startups don't understand about agriculture

#209

Post by MildlySerious »

saeranv wrote: post #194
kumarski wrote: post #158

My father is an ag soil chemist of 50+ years. I'm an industrial systems eng. w/ a specialty in polymer-textile-fiber engineering. (Mostly useless skillsets in the US now) Gonna share a few lessons here about agriculture that I try to convey to EECS, econ, Neuroscience, and the web developer crowd. - You can only grow non-calorically dense foods in vertical farms - It takes 10-14 kwh/1000 gallons of water to desalinat…

Re: Which brings up another issue, which is energy density/m2 of land. To support industrialization/high density urbanism the only fuel sources that do this are currently fossil fuels, or nuclear, but none of the renewable fuels have the energy density. So if these countries want to increase the amount of MWh/capita, the most efficient (only?) pathway is through high-energy density fuel sources, which right now is be…

Why is energy density important in that context? If all other variables were identical between a high density an a low density solution, the high density one would of course be preferable. But if the low density solution is cheaper and relies less on pre-existing long-distance grid infrastructure, why would high density still be considered the most efficient, or possibly the only viable pathway?

Re: What vertical farming and ag startups don't understand about agriculture

#210

Post by adammunich »

gdubs wrote: post #154
adammunich wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean... Goats?

Lol, that’s great. Would love to have grazing animals in the future but we’re not quite ready to take care of them yet. Also involves decisions on fencing etc. I have been warned a LOT about goats and their ability to destroy everything, and evade even the tallest fences.

You're right, goats can be trouble makers. We use sheep to mow our lawn and they are very easy to deal with. They won't go over a 2 foot fence and don't need a lot of maintenance. Water, occasionally some mineral rich feed, and a shear.
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