Live data from Hacker News

The Harm of Studying Abroad

readingthechinadream.com

51–60 of 121 posts

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#51
It seems a bit strange to view the physical 'traveling abroad' as harmful, when he's so obviously 'traveling abroad' in thought throughout the piece - Heidegger, after all, was not Chinese.

It also seems that a lot of what caused the century of humiliation for China was this inward-looking tendency in Chinese culture, a tendency that left them ignorant of western ideas and technology until it was essentially too late. It also seems that a lot of the reinvigoration of China is due to a spirit of openness towards the rest of the world, with western ideas (most obviously marxism) being the driver of a phenomenal amount of change.

Not being Chinese, it makes me a bit sad to see China drift the kind of insular, chauvinistic direction it has been going in the last few years. Chinese culture is amazing, but it's at its very best when it's vigorously confronting the outside world.

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#52

The whole article rings false to me. Although I get that it's Zhang's personal experience, but the reasoning makes zero sense, and it feels like he just wanted to vent. Some of the points seemingly have nothing to do with studying abroad, but the nature of the university he attended, for example, > First, you have no time. You read a lot but there’s no time to think. This is has nothing to do with being a foreigner,…

The final claim is hyperbolic. There absolutely is another option which is to find people who aren't interested in performing amiability or socializing exclusively in the safety of their ethnicity. I made friends because we loved talking about healthcare policy, from being on the debate team, from a shared love for Mad Men, from being interested in starting companies. I did all of this as someone who'd spent the deca…

> I'm not saying any of this was easy, but I do think there's a self-defeating element to believing what the parent does.

Totally agree, if you start off thinking that it's hard to make friends with foreigners, it might discourage you and causing you to not even try.

That being said, pretending the barrier doesn't exist is also harmful, because you do need to try harder. Without that expectation and conscious effort, most people naturally gravitate towards their existing in-group, which may be drawn along not just racial lines, but also regional, political, class, or any other lines that causes difference.

Edit: different groups are also treated differently, because they benefit or suffer from different stereotypes. A white American living in Asia will have very different experience than an Asian person living in US.

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#53

The whole article rings false to me. Although I get that it's Zhang's personal experience, but the reasoning makes zero sense, and it feels like he just wanted to vent. Some of the points seemingly have nothing to do with studying abroad, but the nature of the university he attended, for example, > First, you have no time. You read a lot but there’s no time to think. This is has nothing to do with being a foreigner,…

The final claim is hyperbolic. There absolutely is another option which is to find people who aren't interested in performing amiability or socializing exclusively in the safety of their ethnicity. I made friends because we loved talking about healthcare policy, from being on the debate team, from a shared love for Mad Men, from being interested in starting companies. I did all of this as someone who'd spent the deca…

I call it the language comfort pit. Because it's comfortable to not learn the language properly and hang out with people from the home country, you just make a small home country in the new country.

It happens whenever you have that community available. If it's just yourself, then you are forced to adjust. I saw it happening with my family members too. The ones that went to the large immigrant community led to them not knowing English well, while the more isolated ones integrated properly. One even first went to somewhere with no community, and when they moved to somewhere with community they said that their English used to be better back there! I also saw how they became a burden on their children as they were not able to function properly in a country where they couldn't speak the language properly, closing off opportunity to themselves.

On the other side with Chinese students who come over to a western country, I found it frustrating that they were pretty shy & insular when speaking english while they were gregarious and cracking jokes in chinese amongst each other. I tried to connect, but I think they feel too embarrassed to try to speak english, so they don't practice enough outside the minimum and never reach competency and then stick with their chinese friendship group. And they don't seem that interested most of the time :(

You also see it happening with western expats in asian countries too.

So my suggestion to anyone moving to another country and planning to stay there for years, avoid the home group and force yourself to speak with mistakes. Otherwise you hurt and isolate yourself instead and write sour grapes essays like this one.

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#54
post #24

What I was impressed with is the profundity to which he attaches to sitting around and bs’ing with his Chinese buddies. And when we westerners see this, out of the corner of our eye, we think...

I'd wish they try to do it with us too!

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The final claim is hyperbolic. There absolutely is another option which is to find people who aren't interested in performing amiability or socializing exclusively in the safety of their ethnicity. I made friends because we loved talking about healthcare policy, from being on the debate team, from a shared love for Mad Men, from being interested in starting companies. I did all of this as someone who'd spent the deca…

In the interest of intellectual honesty, it's possible that I'm an extreme outlier in this respect. I've spent the last year traveling around the world, I find it really easy to share emotional vulnerability with strangers, and I've made meaningful connections with people in every country I've lived in for more than a week. This is likely not true for most people.

Emotional vulnerability is easier with strangers you will never meet again.

What parent talks about is acceptance and being member of in-group. That is much much different. It is also much different to really click and be really in-group with people from another culture, because you can't rely on assumptions you grew with.

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#56

The whole article rings false to me. Although I get that it's Zhang's personal experience, but the reasoning makes zero sense, and it feels like he just wanted to vent. Some of the points seemingly have nothing to do with studying abroad, but the nature of the university he attended, for example, > First, you have no time. You read a lot but there’s no time to think. This is has nothing to do with being a foreigner,…

The essay reads as satirical to me. Especially the ending line: > My sole desire is that when future generations come of age, they will inherit a mature academic tradition, and will not have to travel such long distances and endure these various discomforts.

Written in 2008. But that says that in 2008, China does not have a mature academic tradition. That's... I don't quite know what to make of it, but it's an interesting admission.

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#57
I feel like a lot of people commenting here don't understand that in order to get a high rank title in China, he had to go and study in the West, against his will.

So naturally, he resisted and resented this fate, not unlike many of my friends resented having to finish University and pass classes they had no interest in.

The points he makes, I did not find to be insightful or interesting. They're down to earth, simple, human observations, not unlike the stories I hear from someone who goes on vacation. At least this guy didn't spend most of his time talking about food :)

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally, I think the biggest difficulty for a Chinese in studying abroad in the US, is the difficulty of being accepted into the circle. I am white but I have heard this from Asian people and Asian Americans. I wonder if some of it could vary from region to region. For example an Asian American friend had very big problems in Florida. Her white peers said unbelievably ignorant things to a fully American born, or…

It's quite well known that SF is full of subtle racism towards Asians despite ironically being full of Asians. Actually calling those racism is a bit overblown compared to lynchings or police shootings. It's mostly biases and stereotypes affecting how people treat strangers, and Asians suffer silently in those situations like many other groups. Think of the recent issue where a black woman and her child was denied se…

Yeah. There is even an implied bias in my comment above. As a white person, I can move to any part of Florida and not feel harassed. Not so for my friend and a bunch of others.

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#59

> The text translated here, written in 2008, has nothing to do with Zhang’s academic work, but instead reflects changing attitudes among younger Chinese intellectuals concerning the value of Western ideas and the experience of studying abroad. > Zhang is surely right that doing an advanced degree in a foreign language is a challenge involving at times a loss of autonomy and a loss of status. More interesting is the o…

> China is a great place to be if you've got the right connections

This might be true for the majority of China, but for big cities like Shanghai, Beijing and Shenzhen, no, connections mean far less even comparing to western world.

> but no so great if you're gay, muslim, tibetan, or like to have opinions.

Do you get this from reading western media or did you actually go there and talk to those actual human beings? I can't speak for everywhere, but being an ethnic minority comes with tons of perks in China. For ethnic minorities, one child policy never applied to them, the kids get extra points during high school/university entrance exams, my Mongolian roommate even got extra financial support due to his ethnicity. People would fabricate document to gain minority status because that gives their kids an edge in almost everywhere. Growing up, as a Han Chinese, I always feel this is unfair and absurd.

As for religions, again I can't speak for Xinjiang itself, but from my experience in east coast, no one cares what religion you believe in. It's only an issue when you try to challenge the government with it. You can find mosque and churches in most cities.

And gay? Believe or not, I know it sounds absurd, but being gay is sort of a hip thing among the youngsters. The will obviously face repulsions from older generations, but this rings true all around the world. Bottom line is, the general public does not actively persecute the LGBT group, nor do they care.

The only thing that would bring you trouble is having an opinion against the government. I am not saying this is not a big issue, but stop pretending that the country is constantly oppressing everyone.

Re: The Harm of Studying Abroad

#60
post #11

I honestly can't tell if this is sarcastic or not. Especially points 4 and 5 - this is when you learn to get out of comfort zone!

Could just be a resume building puff piece to help him rise in the party machinery.

Chinese person saying something you don't believe yourself? Must be a brainwashed party drone! Sigh, the racism is running wild on HN too. It really is becoming the new Reddit.
Post reply on HN