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My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

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Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#621

Post by xyzzyz »

kedean wrote: post #150
dantheman wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public education has plenty of funding; maybe enable parents to choose where their kids go so failing schools and teachers can be shutdown and fired. I like how state abuse is considered capitalist greed - prisons and police forces are run by the state.

> Public education has plenty of funding; maybe enable parents to choose where their kids go so failing schools and teachers can be shutdown and fired. That will make things worse, not better. School inequity right now stems almost entirely from the practice of funding schools with property taxes, leading to schools in wealthier districts getting good budgets and schools in low-income areas getting shoestring budgets…

The schools in bad districts have their budgets propped up by state and federal funds, and typically they spend more per student than schools in wealthy districts. Look it up.

At the same time, school spending doesn’t really matter. Public schools in NYC and DC spend insane amounts of money per student and have abysmal results anyway.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#622

Post by lenkite »

freeopinion wrote: post #503
blub wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the officer was calm and professional I don't know what more you want from them. It's not the job of the police to hold the hands of every paranoid individual and shush them back to a state of tranquility. Is Theresa May some sort of authority on policing that her name keeps being mentioned here? As an external observer it seems that she was a complete failure at everything during her tenure, surely there's someon…

> It's not the job of the police to hold the hands of every paranoid individual and shush them back to a state of tranquility. Umm... It kinda should be. yeah. It certainly shouldn't be their job to shoot those people, or tackle those people, or manhandle those people.

They will need to be trained and paid far higher then!

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#623

Post by lenkite »

vidarh wrote: post #413
randompwd wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes well done. How do you think police determine if they're in limit or not. They test them. She could have been on her way in 5 minutes but chose to act like an idiot.

And police could have resolved this peacefully but chose to escalate the situation with someone who was terrified of them because they were incapable of understanding why she would be scared of them, and in doing so creates more fear when people see how police may treat them. UK police are generally quite good at de-escalating situations they understand. I've praised them for that many times. E.g. they will go into s…

UK police are great health councillors. When it comes to crime, they are toothless. They deliberately ignored massive sex crimes and sex trafficking due to fear of being accused as racist. When your life is in danger from criminals, don't trust the UK police - they will probably shake their hands.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerscruton/2014/08/30/why-did...

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#624

Post by spurgu »

shitgoose wrote: post #597
korijn wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get rid of your guns

I am not a criminal. Nor a police officer. Why should I get rid of my gun?

I'm not a criminal (for the most part[0]). Nor am I a police officer. Why should I have a gun?

[0] WTF is a "criminal" anyways? I use illegal substances sometimes. I drive above the speed limit (like everyone else does) most of the time. Back when I played poker on US sites I didn't pay taxes on my winnings even though I should have. I can think of a ton of examples where I simply do not follow the law and so according to the definition of the word I am a criminal.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#625

Post by mcny »

chinesempire wrote: post #603
mcny wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A little off-topic but I thought the meta was you are more likely to be beaten up/tortured by police while in custody in Europe/Asia as opposed to while in custody in the US? I have no experience in these things. Have I misunderstood this?

That's false as well. Look at a Norway prison Now take a look at an American one

> Look at a Norway prison

Thank you for the reply. Yes, I understand that Scandinavian countries do a lot of things better. I also understand that prisons are terrible in the US and jails are worse still.

However, from stories I've heard about "interrogation techniques"...

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=https:/...

My understanding is that it is unlawful to torture (physically, mentally, ...) into answering questions and/or confessing to any crime in the US and you have a right to remain silent (in theory at least) in police custody. How well is enforced in other countries?

From what I understand, local police (talking about custody, not jail or prison) in the US will sometimes use torture techniques like isolation or suicide watch and will beat suspects when they get a chance (moving between rooms or whatever) but this is uncommon.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#626

Post by chinesempire »

mcny wrote: post #625
chinesempire wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's false as well. Look at a Norway prison Now take a look at an American one

> Look at a Norway prison Thank you for the reply. Yes, I understand that Scandinavian countries do a lot of things better. I also understand that prisons are terrible in the US and jails are worse still. However, from stories I've heard about "interrogation techniques"... https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=https:/... My understanding is that it is unlawful to torture (physically, mentally, ...) int…

It's enforced better than in the US, on many levels.

First, they can't really arrest you without motiv, they can't even detain you without motiv.

Second: you can confront a police officer in EU, they won't shoot you or handcuff you, unless you pose a real danger to public safety.

I had a fight with one of them three months ago, he almost ran over me with his bike and when I confronted him he removed his jacket and told he was a police officer. I said "you are two times wrong then" He yelled at me he was going to bring me in, I said "no way" and meanwhile people gathered around me and started saying to the police officer he was abusing his powers, that they had seen what he'd done with his bike and where ready to testify against him, if he didn't apologize.

He went away.

That's almost impossible in the US, where officers are trained to respond physically to basically anything that they consider a threat.

Stefano Cucchi is a very peculiar case he wasn't lawfully tortured, he was killed by the police and then they tried to cover it up.

I went to many events in support of his cause.

After years of trial the officers have been condemned and many high ranking officers asked for forgiveness to Stefano's sister, Ilaria, a great woman who stood alone against the injustice her brother faced.

But it's been a very popular case all over the news, for years, there have been a few others in Italy, but the point is it is unlawful and you can count them on the fingers of one hand.

The real problem in Italy is that it takes decades to get a final judgement.

And right now the right wing parties, that also support Trump, that wants free guns for everybody like in the US.

Anyway, torture is a crime in Italy and it is considerd an aggravating factor if it is committed by an officer.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#627

Post by JamisonM »

centimeter wrote: post #542
JamisonM wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually it is only one order of magnitude. But the more important factor is that in most homicides the victim and the perpetrator know one another. On that basis minorities, and particularly middle-class and up members of minority groups, have good reason to be more concerned about abuse and/or murder at the hands of authorities as a more important consideration than truly random violence.

> Actually it is only one order of magnitude. My mistake - this does not change the nature of my argument at all. That's still a massive difference in risk. Why do you think it makes sense to ignore the majority of homicides (which don't fit a popular political narrative)? That's like saying "Most car crashes happen near home, so on that basis people have good reason to be more concerned about plane crashes."

You don't control when, where, and how often you interact with the police in the same way that you control where you live and who your friends and co-workers are. If you are a middle class regardless of ethnicity your odds of being a homicide victim are pretty much approaching zero.

If you are middle class and non-white your odds of being hassled by the police are quite high and probably validated by experience. The odds of such an experience escalating into violence or death may be empirically small but each and every instance of interaction with authorities is an instance of greatly increased risk and a risk that is in large part out of your control. This is something worth being concerned about and that concern has an impact on your day-to-day behaviour and well-being.

Being more concerned about police violence than random violence makes perfect sense to me. I suspect that if you dig into it that concern is also empirically more rational.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#628

Post by x86_64Ubuntu »

corebit wrote: post #448
x86_64Ubuntu wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not true. Th US and the Caribbean have a slaver and white supremacists culture that didn't exist in the UK. https://time.com/4779112/police-history-origins/ https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/... https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=WLovR6DgNFEC&oi=... https://plsonline.eku.edu/insidelook/brief-history-slavery-a...

Your sources very accurately reflect the history that slavery was enforced by the legal system and peace officers upholding it. They don't lend any credence whatsoever to the notion that slave patrols morphed into modern police departments. The actual history is that police have slowly become more localized and detached from central authority (like the Kind or his officials - sheriffs, etc) over time as populations i…

>.... The actual history is that police have slowly become more localized and detached from central authority

Policing has been a problem for the black community since before your "not racist" reason of detachment from central authority happened.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#629

Post by mcny »

chinesempire wrote: post #626
mcny wrote: post #625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Look at a Norway prison Thank you for the reply. Yes, I understand that Scandinavian countries do a lot of things better. I also understand that prisons are terrible in the US and jails are worse still. However, from stories I've heard about "interrogation techniques"... https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=https:/... My understanding is that it is unlawful to torture (physically, mentally, ...) int…

It's enforced better than in the US, on many levels. First, they can't really arrest you without motiv, they can't even detain you without motiv. Second: you can confront a police officer in EU, they won't shoot you or handcuff you, unless you pose a real danger to public safety. I had a fight with one of them three months ago, he almost ran over me with his bike and when I confronted him he removed his jacket and to…

> Anyway, torture is a crime in Italy and it is considerd an aggravating factor if it is committed by an officer.

Thank you. I appreciate your answering my questions and not assuming I am asking rhetorical questions (something I am not very good at yet). I didn't know about the case and saw it when I googled for any case.

> And right now the right wing parties, that also support Trump, that wants free guns for everybody like in the US.

I don't know for sure as I am not friends with many 45 supporters but my understanding is the "base" is more interested in guns for everyone more than 45 himself. Not that it matters in the larger scheme but just thought I'd share my understanding.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#630

Post by runeks »

vkou wrote: post #47
chockablock wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Effective civilian oversight is made damn hard by the political power wielded by the police. Most of this article is in fact about the ways in which NYC's existing civilian review board is neutered and undermined by police department control of every aspect of its work: investigation, adjudication, and punishment. Investigation: > civilian investigators don’t have direct access to the [body cam] footage. They email r…

All of these problems come from the department being fully controlled by the police union. I am typically a pro-union person. I even think that police unions, as a concept, should exist. But police unions, as implemented, are the reason that civilian oversight of police is impossible. Typical unions consist of line workers - with maybe line managers. They are then overseen by professional managers, directors, etc, wh…

I’ve heard people suggest that public workers should not be allowed to unionize. To me, it sounds like an extreme position, but stuff like this makes me consider it more seriously.

If the ability to cover up criminal acts is a consequence of police unions, there’s no doubt in my mind that they should be abolished.

Unions make a lot of sense, unless they can negotiate impunity on behalf of their members.

EDIT: Interesting article on this subject: https://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-trou...

Quote from the article:

When it comes to advancing their interests, public-sector unions have significant advantages over traditional unions. For one thing, using the political process, they can exert far greater influence over their members' employers — that is, government — than private-sector unions can. Through their extensive political activity, these government-workers' unions help elect the very politicians who will act as "management" in their contract negotiations — in effect handpicking those who will sit across the bargaining table from them, in a way that workers in a private corporation (like, say, American Airlines or the Washington Post Company) cannot. Such power led Victor Gotbaum, the leader of District Council 37 of the AFSCME in New York City, to brag in 1975: "We have the ability, in a sense, to elect our own boss."

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