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Haskell for a New Decade [pdf]

dev.stephendiehl.com

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Re: Haskell for a New Decade [pdf]

#21

Post by whateveracct »

I've been writing Haskell professionally for 5 years now and as a hobbyist even longer and this presentation just doesn't resonate with my experience and view towards the future.

That said I've taken my focus off working in it professionally. It's such a chore to have to constantly justify it to newly-externally-hired management and inevitably get a top-down directive to rewrite. I'm done relying on managers and corporations to drive Haskell.

My focus now is freedom & independence. I've got plenty of hugs and impactful personal projects & Haskell advancements I'd like to undertake in the next 5-15 years, and nothing even sniffs Haskell as a tool for me building without thinking or exerting energy. Maybe my issue is I love Haskell but I am abjectly not a community member.

Re: Haskell for a New Decade [pdf]

#22

Post by bcatanzaro »

nightski wrote: post #19
quickthrower2 wrote: post #9

I think the focus on Haskell is missing the mark a bit. Haskell is about programming language researchers and enthusiasts having a excellent example language to try out ideas. Over the years it has turned into a production ready platform. As the PDF shows there are many languages spun off Haskell and it doesn't even mention them all. Then there are language features in C# and Java, Typescript etc. that are coming acr…

I can't speak for everyone but for me the type system is not what made Haskell difficult. I loved it. What made it difficult was laziness. I'd find myself always trying to reason about execution (even though most of the time you probably shouldn't). Laziness might even be fine in a world built around it, but for a language to be practical it has to interface with systems that are not designed that way (numerous exter…

I felt that way too. I remember the first time I tried to make a lazy list of random numbers in Haskell. It didn't work because of course the random number generator is stateful which conflicts with laziness. It was a disappointing moment for sure.

Re: Haskell for a New Decade [pdf]

#23

Post by quickthrower2 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #16
quickthrower2 wrote: post #9

I think the focus on Haskell is missing the mark a bit. Haskell is about programming language researchers and enthusiasts having a excellent example language to try out ideas. Over the years it has turned into a production ready platform. As the PDF shows there are many languages spun off Haskell and it doesn't even mention them all. Then there are language features in C# and Java, Typescript etc. that are coming acr…

> Then there are language features in C# and Java, Typescript etc. that are coming across from Haskell. What language features in Java came from Haskell?

Stream API would be my first thought but I am not as familiar with Java. Maybe I should have said "ideas", I'm not sure there are any language level changes for Stream API.

Re: Haskell for a New Decade [pdf]

#24

Post by diablerouge »

chrisseaton wrote: post #16
quickthrower2 wrote: post #9

I think the focus on Haskell is missing the mark a bit. Haskell is about programming language researchers and enthusiasts having a excellent example language to try out ideas. Over the years it has turned into a production ready platform. As the PDF shows there are many languages spun off Haskell and it doesn't even mention them all. Then there are language features in C# and Java, Typescript etc. that are coming acr…

> Then there are language features in C# and Java, Typescript etc. that are coming across from Haskell. What language features in Java came from Haskell?

Generics, no? Philip Wadler, one of the designers of Haskell, was involved with the introduction of generics to Java.

Re: Haskell for a New Decade [pdf]

#26

Post by JoelMcCracken »

zerr wrote: post #12
Twisol wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Rustacean, I find that silly. There's a lot to love about Haskell. I'd be interested in hearing from your Haskellers what it is about Rust that renders Haskell obsolete. As it stands, I can only construct straw men, and I'm not really willing to do that.

From the pure language perspective (i.e. batteries aside), what do you miss in Rust from Haskell?

Controlled side effects

Re: Haskell for a New Decade [pdf]

#27

Post by linuxlizard »

whateveracct wrote: post #21

I've been writing Haskell professionally for 5 years now and as a hobbyist even longer and this presentation just doesn't resonate with my experience and view towards the future. That said I've taken my focus off working in it professionally. It's such a chore to have to constantly justify it to newly-externally-hired management and inevitably get a top-down directive to rewrite. I'm done relying on managers and corp…

What kind of production systems are a good fit with Haskell? I've wanted to learn Haskell but keep getting distracted by other shiny things that are more directly applicable to my job.

Re: Haskell for a New Decade [pdf]

#28

Post by chrisseaton »

diablerouge wrote: post #24
chrisseaton wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then there are language features in C# and Java, Typescript etc. that are coming across from Haskell. What language features in Java came from Haskell?

Generics, no? Philip Wadler, one of the designers of Haskell, was involved with the introduction of generics to Java.

The original paper on Java generics as we know them today only mentions Haskell twice, both times in passing.

Once in reference to something that they didn't do (algebraic types), and once in reference to that both Haskell and their work were being inspired by an earlier common idea (System F) from the early 1970s.

Re: Haskell for a New Decade [pdf]

#29

Post by chrisseaton »

quickthrower2 wrote: post #23
chrisseaton wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then there are language features in C# and Java, Typescript etc. that are coming across from Haskell. What language features in Java came from Haskell?

Stream API would be my first thought but I am not as familiar with Java. Maybe I should have said "ideas", I'm not sure there are any language level changes for Stream API.

> Stream API would be my first thought but I am not as familiar with Java.

Can you name any design characteristics in Java's stream API that came from Haskell, rather than were already common in many languages when Haskell itself was designed? I can't.

Re: Haskell for a New Decade [pdf]

#30

Post by smegma2 »

bcatanzaro wrote: post #22
nightski wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak for everyone but for me the type system is not what made Haskell difficult. I loved it. What made it difficult was laziness. I'd find myself always trying to reason about execution (even though most of the time you probably shouldn't). Laziness might even be fine in a world built around it, but for a language to be practical it has to interface with systems that are not designed that way (numerous exter…

I felt that way too. I remember the first time I tried to make a lazy list of random numbers in Haskell. It didn't work because of course the random number generator is stateful which conflicts with laziness. It was a disappointing moment for sure.

What was the problem exactly? I don't see any issues with generating e.g. an infinite list of random numbers in Haskell.
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