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My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

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Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#271

Post by marcinzm »

pierrebai wrote: post #246
eMSF wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the black person that gets into deadly altercations with the police an “average” black person? Of the two incidents that have caused much civil unrest lately (enough to be heard of on this side of the Atlantic) there's been one walking catalogue of locally available illicit substances (per the autopsy), and another one passed out drunk driver, with both of course resisting arrest after it is inevitable (with one o…

Resisting arrest should not lead to death. There is no urgency to shoot someone who is drunk in the back as he is fleeing when you have his car in your possession. Polices are using unnecessarily lethal force indiscriminately for offenses and in situations that don't require in the least. They have been getting positive reinforcement by being not prosecuted and being protected by their force and the system in general…

We’ve also seen the last month that police will lie to cover their backsides. Resisting arrest without video evidence to prove it just means they needed a retroactive excuse.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#272

Post by x86_64Ubuntu »

jeffdavis wrote: post #241
pjc50 wrote: post #22

> “I blame myself,” she kept saying. “I never let him out on Halloween. A bunch of Black boys together. I shouldn’t have let him out. But he begged me.” Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police. (Just to spell it out: this is why so many BLM activists feel comfortable saying "abolish the…

Blacks are killed by police disproportionately by a factor of around 2-3x. For such a remote occurrance, a small factor doesn't justify the difference between carefree and paralyzed by fear. Automobile accidents kill a lot more people than police do, but I doubt most people bother to know the risks of cars within a factor of 2-3x. The fear may be there, but I don't see it justified in the numbers. Blacks are also dis…

It's not just murder, it's being beaten by the cops, arrested and being hauled through the system and a variety of other things.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#273

Post by vidarh »

pjc50 wrote: post #22

> “I blame myself,” she kept saying. “I never let him out on Halloween. A bunch of Black boys together. I shouldn’t have let him out. But he begged me.” Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police. (Just to spell it out: this is why so many BLM activists feel comfortable saying "abolish the…

We recently had a case in the UK where a prominent (as in winning the British Empire Medal for her services to nursing prominent) nurse was stopped by police, and was too scared to get out of the car.

When she told the police this, their response was "I don’t believe you because you’re talking to police officers."

She ended up being arrested for obstruction because they kept failing to understand that her reluctance to comply was because they terrified her, and they can be heard in the bodycam footage [1] going "This is nonsense, there's something in this vehicle" after listening to her telling her dad she's afraid the police officer is going to harm her.

When the police officer starts dragging her out, she is screaming over the phone for her dad to call the police.

The officer is thankfully relatively calm, and it ended without physical harm to her, but this is a quite stark demonstration of the kind of fear the police has created, and how they then perpetuate that by not teaching their officers to understand the existence of that fear and interpret non-compliance resulting from that fear as indication of criminal activity.

She's was cleared, and is pursuing a claim against the police, but of course a claim will not address the fundamental ignorance among a lot of police officers about the fear they are inducing.

I can only imagine how much worse that fear must be in the US - at least in the UK police is rarely carrying firearms - and how awful that fear must be for parents.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/18/nurse-claims-m...

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#274

Post by throwaway_jobs »

creato wrote: post #260
hinkley wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, the fact that you are only 10 times more likely to die from a civilian as from a police officer is an appallingly bad ratio . That ratio should be over 100:1, not 10:1, and certainly not 9:1. This conversation is missing another statistic: The percent of citizens who are also LEOs, which I'm seeing is about 1 in 300. Which means your chances of dying during an encounter with a random civilian are about 30 time…

This is comparing murder to every instance of police killing someone, justified or not. Police murdering someone is much more rare. The ratio you are talking about probably is in fact well over 100:1.

I don’t know about the ratio being 100:1, but You are right these are Classified police killings not murders...that said, also consider George Floyd’s death was on track to be swept under the rug as a Justified police Killing until the protests.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#275

Post by treis »

dvtrn wrote: post #213
treis wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see anything in there to refute what I said. In fact, he seems to agree with my numbers at least. He admits that Blacks are roughly 10x as likely to commit murder. If we agree with that and agree that is some rough proxy for criminality why wouldn't we expect about 10 times as much police violence against Black people?

If we agree with that and agree that is some rough proxy for criminality why wouldn't we expect about 10 times as much police violence against Black people? Caveat lector: If we agree. I don't agree with this idea that the statistics of criminality in the black community is a proxy for anything , and more that it is a result of multiple compounding issues that snowballed throughout generations of peoples bringing us…

> In your mind what is this a proxy for?

Criminality, like I said.

I don't see anywhere in your post where you actually addressed the point I made. Again, that is if Black people commit X times as many crimes we should expect X times as many negative police interactions. Whether that be excessive violence or innocents being swept up in police action or anything else.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#276

Post by dragonwriter »

geekone wrote: post #245
eMSF wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the black person that gets into deadly altercations with the police an “average” black person? Of the two incidents that have caused much civil unrest lately (enough to be heard of on this side of the Atlantic) there's been one walking catalogue of locally available illicit substances (per the autopsy), and another one passed out drunk driver, with both of course resisting arrest after it is inevitable (with one o…

Are you implying Floyd was resisting while he was being suffocated for 10 minutes?

> Are you implying Floyd was resisting while he was being suffocated for 10 minutes?

Especially the 2 minutes after another officer checked for and could not find a pulse.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#277

Post by jakelazaroff »

bloak wrote: post #269
lukewrites wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have data points to disprove it? I'm not aware of any data on how often police engage in physical altercations with civilians. One of the points the article makes is that the NYPD actively misrepresents such altercations that could cast the department in a bad light. Stop and frisk policies amount to codifying assault, in my opinion.

Nit: The expression "physical altercation" does not make sense because an "altercation" is an exchange of words. Perhaps what you mean is something like "unwanted physical contact", if we can interpret that expression to include shooting someone but not include first aid to an unconscious person, which I think we probably can with a bit of common sense.

An "altercation" just means an argument.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#278

Post by dvtrn »

treis wrote: post #275
dvtrn wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we agree with that and agree that is some rough proxy for criminality why wouldn't we expect about 10 times as much police violence against Black people? Caveat lector: If we agree. I don't agree with this idea that the statistics of criminality in the black community is a proxy for anything , and more that it is a result of multiple compounding issues that snowballed throughout generations of peoples bringing us…

> In your mind what is this a proxy for? Criminality, like I said. I don't see anywhere in your post where you actually addressed the point I made. Again, that is if Black people commit X times as many crimes we should expect X times as many negative police interactions. Whether that be excessive violence or innocents being swept up in police action or anything else.

I addressed it by disagreeing with and refuting it. You assumed there was a consensus and agreement on the merits, there is no such consensus; criminality cannot be a proxy for criminality-at least I don't believe that to be the case.

From this, allow me to make my position more clear:

No, we shouldn't "expect" an increase in police violence in response to black criminality, because it assumes violence is the appropriate and proportionate State response to deviant criminal behavior when often it is neither appropriate nor proportionate nor even necessary. Again, Sandra Bland: died during a traffic stop; George Floyd and Eric Garner died during Terry[0] stops. Breonna Taylor died while she was asleep. Cite for me the case law that admonishes an escalation of physical force to issue civil citations and I will consider the point earnestly and openly.

Furthermore, we need to narrow the scope and find an actionable definition for "officer safety" as many LEOs use as a defense against misconduct charges.

Resisting arrest should not be a death sentence, officers should be trained better and dealt with far more swiftly (it took nearly three months for an officer who blind-fired into Breonna Taylor's house to even be disciplined by his precinct and still has not faced charges[1]). If I blind fired my weapon onto the streets and bullets went into someone's home, I'd be arrested and charged. If I blind fired my weapon unprovoked as a member of the armed services, as I formerly was, I'd be court marshaled faster than the SR-71 can fly for failure to follow rules of engagement.

Public peace officers shouldn't be held to any lesser of a standard.

Your premise is therefore addressed, but rejected on merits.

---

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_stop

[1] https://blavity.com/officer-brett-hankison-will-be-fired-fro...

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#279

Post by treis »

marcinzm wrote: post #200
treis wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Bringing up "black-on-black crime" is a common disingenuous tactic to distract from conversations about police brutality. It's part of the story, though. The incident in the linked article started because a group of teens jumped another and stole his phone. If that's happening 10x as often then innocent kids in that neighborhood are going to be 10x as likely to be swept up in police action.

>If that's happening 10x as often then innocent kids in that neighborhood are going to be 10x as likely to be swept up in police action. Why do you consider it okay for police to stop and harass innocent people with no evidence simply because they live in a certain neighborhood?

Where did I say that it was okay for police to stop and harass innocent people?

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#280

Post by bluntfang »

zw123456 wrote: post #175

I had an incident happen to me where I was stuck in traffic in the left most lane on the freeway next to the diamond (HOV) lane. So the HOV was on my left and was wide open and all the other lanes were completely stopped, or stop and go. A state police officer had people pulled over just ahead of me for HOV violations. A car that was exactly the same model and color as mine was flying down the HOV and pulled in two c…

imagine wanting to kill someone because they didn't listen to you when you told them to pull their car over for an HOV lane violation.
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