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My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

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Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#261

Post by lostlogin »

throwaway_jobs wrote: post #188
lukewrites wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have data points to disprove it? I'm not aware of any data on how often police engage in physical altercations with civilians. One of the points the article makes is that the NYPD actively misrepresents such altercations that could cast the department in a bad light. Stop and frisk policies amount to codifying assault, in my opinion.

As to murder: White Murder victims: 3,499 (2,854 of the victims were killed by other whites) Black murder victims: 2,870 (2,570 of the victims were killed by other blacks) 2019 police killings by race: White deceased: 370 Black deceased: 235

Can you provide a source? That number of killings is a lot lower than any source I have seen (and the police reporting of deaths they are involved with is very problematic).

Hispanics are killed at a disproportionate rate, and blacks are killed at a vastly disproportionate rate - according to the below blacks are killed at twice the rate of whites.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/polic...

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#262

Post by Invictus0 »

jeffdavis wrote: post #241
pjc50 wrote: post #22

> “I blame myself,” she kept saying. “I never let him out on Halloween. A bunch of Black boys together. I shouldn’t have let him out. But he begged me.” Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police. (Just to spell it out: this is why so many BLM activists feel comfortable saying "abolish the…

Blacks are killed by police disproportionately by a factor of around 2-3x. For such a remote occurrance, a small factor doesn't justify the difference between carefree and paralyzed by fear. Automobile accidents kill a lot more people than police do, but I doubt most people bother to know the risks of cars within a factor of 2-3x. The fear may be there, but I don't see it justified in the numbers. Blacks are also dis…

> Blacks are killed by police disproportionately by a factor of around 2-3x.

I'm having a hard time figuring out the truth on this particular point. I've seen conflicting reports, such as this study from a black Harvard economics professor which found no racial bias [0].

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evi...

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#263

Post by throwaway_jobs »

hinkley wrote: post #234
throwaway_jobs wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As to murder: White Murder victims: 3,499 (2,854 of the victims were killed by other whites) Black murder victims: 2,870 (2,570 of the victims were killed by other blacks) 2019 police killings by race: White deceased: 370 Black deceased: 235

First, the fact that you are only 10 times more likely to die from a civilian as from a police officer is an appallingly bad ratio . That ratio should be over 100:1, not 10:1, and certainly not 9:1. This conversation is missing another statistic: The percent of citizens who are also LEOs, which I'm seeing is about 1 in 300. Which means your chances of dying during an encounter with a random civilian are about 30 time…

> That ratio should be over 100:1, not 10:1, and certainly not 9:1.

I can’t say what the ratio should be...How do you know what that ratio should be?

You say cops should not be a “situation”, not sure what that means but for many of them responding to crimes is exactly what their job entails.

In other words As it relates to your ratio, is is possible a police office is 10 times more likely to encounter a murder/violent criminal in the act than a citizen? I don’t know, but that seems reasonable and probably jacks up to 100:1 to intervening to stop a crime.

I’m really not one to ask, I’ve been on all sides of it: I’ve been arrested (multiple times, including for the victimless crime of possession of marijuana); I’ve been the victim of an armed kidnapping; I’ve represented criminal defendants as an attorney. I can certainly say even being the victim of an armed kidnapping I felt more victimized more by the detective after the fact Than by the kidnapper, I can also add I felt more victimized by the insurance company of the gas station I was kidnapped from and their attorneys than either the kidnapper and detective (they literally destroyed the video of the crimes against me, falsely tried to cover up their destruction of the video claiming it never existed, claimed I falsely alleged the crimes and paid they same detective to testify the crimes happened to me across the Street from the gas station).

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#264

Post by philjohn »

throwaway_jobs wrote: post #188
lukewrites wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have data points to disprove it? I'm not aware of any data on how often police engage in physical altercations with civilians. One of the points the article makes is that the NYPD actively misrepresents such altercations that could cast the department in a bad light. Stop and frisk policies amount to codifying assault, in my opinion.

As to murder: White Murder victims: 3,499 (2,854 of the victims were killed by other whites) Black murder victims: 2,870 (2,570 of the victims were killed by other blacks) 2019 police killings by race: White deceased: 370 Black deceased: 235

And 12.1% of the population - which makes just pasting numbers meaningless. Much better is number per 100,000 so that you can compare like with like.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#265

Post by vageli »

bsanr wrote: post #191
kens wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another weird thing about the NYPD is that each police officer gets 20 so-called "get out of jail free" cards to give to friends and family. The recipient can show the card to the police if pulled over and use the card to "wiggle out of minor trouble". https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42780382

That's a joke, right? Police aren't so stupid to have institutionalized petty corruption with an actual laminated pass, right?

It's sickening. https://classroom.synonym.com/how-to-get-a-pba-card-in-new-j...

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#266

Post by kls »

jeffdavis wrote: post #186
trowawee wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bringing up "black-on-black crime" is a common disingenuous tactic to distract from conversations about police brutality. Most violence is committed by people you're around, and in an intensely segregated country, that will usually be people that are the same race as you. It's a complete digression from the actual conversation here, which is about agents of the state, entrusted to act as enforcers of the state's mono…

It's relevent because you need to compare the costs of police (e.g. police violence) to the scale of problem that is supposedly being solved (e.g. murders). You can choose to fear who you want to fear, I guess. But the numbers seem to suggest pretty much everyone should be more concerned about being murdered than being killed by police. Being killed by police is more of a betrayal, for sure. For that reason it might…

>disproportionate fear on the order of 20X

Because if you successfully defend yourself from a murderer you have a rightful plea to self defense.

If you successfully defend yourself from a cop trying to murder you. You will be lucky with life without the possibility of parole. There is an implicit cannot flee cannot fight in an interaction with a law enforcement officer. So pretty much your natural fight or flight is neutralized and that is a hell of a situation to be in.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#267

Post by 49para »

janjiblack wrote: post #240
throwaway_jobs wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As to murder: White Murder victims: 3,499 (2,854 of the victims were killed by other whites) Black murder victims: 2,870 (2,570 of the victims were killed by other blacks) 2019 police killings by race: White deceased: 370 Black deceased: 235

So by those numbers for the population involved: (2019 population numbers) Whites killed by other whites: 1 per ~87982 Blacks killed by other blacks: 1 per ~17114 (2018 employed cop numbers) Whites killed by cops: 1 per ~1855 Blacks killed by cops: 1 per ~2921 Numbers only say so much though

Is it fair to compare population numbers versus deaths per arrest ?

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#268

Post by lostlogin »

creato wrote: post #260
hinkley wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, the fact that you are only 10 times more likely to die from a civilian as from a police officer is an appallingly bad ratio . That ratio should be over 100:1, not 10:1, and certainly not 9:1. This conversation is missing another statistic: The percent of citizens who are also LEOs, which I'm seeing is about 1 in 300. Which means your chances of dying during an encounter with a random civilian are about 30 time…

This is comparing murder to every instance of police killing someone, justified or not. Police murdering someone is much more rare. The ratio you are talking about probably is in fact well over 100:1.

When you have been given the right to kill people without legal consequence, the distinction become rather hard to make. There have been a lot of unwarranted killings by police that seem to have gone unpunished, how do you chalk those up?

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#269

Post by bloak »

lukewrites wrote: post #162
ponker wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> from their point of view the police are the people most likely to assault or kill them or their children on the street, more so than random criminals That point of view is just factually incorrect. It’s like thinking that the way to get rich is to become a movie star. Sure it might happen but that’s not the normal way.

Do you have data points to disprove it? I'm not aware of any data on how often police engage in physical altercations with civilians. One of the points the article makes is that the NYPD actively misrepresents such altercations that could cast the department in a bad light. Stop and frisk policies amount to codifying assault, in my opinion.

Nit: The expression "physical altercation" does not make sense because an "altercation" is an exchange of words. Perhaps what you mean is something like "unwanted physical contact", if we can interpret that expression to include shooting someone but not include first aid to an unconscious person, which I think we probably can with a bit of common sense.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#270

Post by eloff »

trowawee wrote: post #88
eloff wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a tactic commonly used as you say. It's also a relevant statistic here, although all race on black violence would have been even better. It still serves to support the point quite clearly that police are not to be feared as much as criminals, even if you're black. Having said that, a lot of criminal violence happens if you're mixed up in that world or frequenting a bad area as opposed to just random violence. T…

It is completely irrelevant. It's like responding to "It's raining today" with "It was sunny last week". At best, it's a non-sequitur, at worst it's an active attempt to distract from the conversation at hand. And it ignores the facts that A) black-on-black crime does not happen at a substantially higher rate than white-on-white crime, B) the explanation for why most crime is intra-racial in a segregated country is p…

You completely missed the point. It's relevant to this thread that blacks should fear the police more than criminal violence. Well sorry, that's not born out by the statistics, so it's an irrational belief.
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