My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works • Hacker News Board

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#211

Post by aspaceman » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 5:29 PM UTC

nailer wrote: post #204

aspaceman wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. You wouldn’t be criticized if you got it wrong, but it’s the kinda thing that would make an English style guide. You do it the other way and watch absolutely no one care.

> You do it the other way and watch absolutely no one care. I have never seen a style guide make a distinction between skin colors, and I disagree that nobody would care if they capitalised 'white' but not 'black'.

You’re quoting to a reply that replies to a link with a style guide that does exactly that. Open it and your whole world will change apparently.

Reading comprehension must be so hard.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#212

Post by nailer » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 5:30 PM UTC

alistairSH wrote: post #187

joshuaheard wrote: post #11

Why is "Black" capitalized, but "white" is not?

It already is... Irish-American, Polish-American, Jewish, etc. "Black" isn't just about skin tone, it's about the shared cultural experience.

But that's not correct - while both would generally be considered 'black', sub Saharan Africans share very little cultural experience with African Americans.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#213

Post by dvtrn » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 5:31 PM UTC

treis wrote: post #196

dhosek wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[edited to add context] a comprehensive reply to the "what about black on black crime" comment from journalist Michael Harriot. https://twitter.com/michaelharriot/status/126846376828518809...

I don't see anything in there to refute what I said. In fact, he seems to agree with my numbers at least. He admits that Blacks are roughly 10x as likely to commit murder. If we agree with that and agree that is some rough proxy for criminality why wouldn't we expect about 10 times as much police violence against Black people?

If we agree with that and agree that is some rough proxy for criminality why wouldn't we expect about 10 times as much police violence against Black people?

Caveat lector: If we agree.

I don't agree with this idea that the statistics of criminality in the black community is a proxy for anything, and more that it is a result of multiple compounding issues that snowballed throughout generations of peoples bringing us to where we are today. In your mind what is this a proxy for? I'd like to hear this notion unpacked.

Those questions are varied and nuanced and their answers are equally varied and nuanced, and against the backdrop of exactly how certain members of the constabulary execute (pun most certainly and deliberately intended) violence in response to violence are people like me trying to desperately point at as this the topic we want to discuss when we say "Black Lives Matter", yet time and time again we have to stop and have the "black people commit more crimes" discussion with people who are focused on the math of crimes committed while black at the expense of just about any other valid variable in the equation.

So if we take the "black people commit more crimes" framework on its face, does that mean they deserve to die for all of them? Did Sandra Bland really need to be shot because she didn't want to put out a cigarette at a traffic stop or could the officer have written her the moving citation she probably actually deserved, and gone about his policing elsewhere?[0] Did Eric Garner need asphyxiation for a civil citation when he was stopped for selling illegal cigarettes? Did George Floyd need to have a knee on his neck for nearly 10 minutes for a counterfeit $20?

I challenge us all to think beyond just "well they committed a crime" and start asking some hard goddamn questions about what we're saying if that's going to be the response to critical theories of criminal justice-because many (not all) of the names commonly shouted out in discussion about police brutality committed petty offenses that should have received citations but instead received death sentences; highlighting a severely disproportionate view of policing scofflaws that breaks "well they broke the law" down into "contempt of cop"[1].

---

[0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/07/2...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempt_of_cop

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#214

Post by vkou » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 5:31 PM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #110

vkou wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a peace officer department that is not given guns, or a mandate to apply violence first, and ask questions later, would be a substantial improvement for doing 95-99% of the work police currently do. It might still be systemically racist, but at least the consequences thereof will be lower. We've already tried reforming departments. It doesn't work. The entire management structure of your neighbourhood police d…

> It might still be systemically racist, but at least the consequences thereof will be lower. If that’s the final output I suspect most people will want to retain the status quo because the primary problem is ignored at great expense.

1. Mitigating harm is not ignoring the problem.

2. Reforms don't work. The SPD has been under federal sanction, and has been the target of numerous reform plans for the past two decades. Nothing sticks. The department is institutionally incapable of reform or accountability.

3. Given #2, it is currently being ignored at great expense. Police are the highest-paid public servants. Police departments consume the overwhelming majority of municipal tax revenue.

Why would you hire a cop for a six figure salary, to have them spend most of their time deal with social worker problems, when social workers are already capable of doing that job, for a third the pay? Why do you have that same cop cruise around, issuing parking tickets, when you could have a bylaw officer do the same thing, for a third the pay?

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#215

Post by nailer » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

aspaceman wrote: post #211

nailer wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You do it the other way and watch absolutely no one care. I have never seen a style guide make a distinction between skin colors, and I disagree that nobody would care if they capitalised 'white' but not 'black'.

You’re quoting to a reply that replies to a link with a style guide that does exactly that. Open it and your whole world will change apparently. Reading comprehension must be so hard.

My comment: "I disagree that nobody would care if they capitalised 'white' but not 'black'."

The style guide in question: "why we capitalize ‘Black’ (and not ‘white’)"

Your comment: "You’re quoting to a reply that replies to a link with a style guide that does exactly that. Reading comprehension must be so hard."

Yes, it must.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#216

Post by eMSF » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

marcinzm wrote: post #128

eloff wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a tactic commonly used as you say. It's also a relevant statistic here, although all race on black violence would have been even better. It still serves to support the point quite clearly that police are not to be feared as much as criminals, even if you're black. Having said that, a lot of criminal violence happens if you're mixed up in that world or frequenting a bad area as opposed to just random violence. T…

>It still serves to support the point quite clearly that police are not to be feared as much as criminals, even if you're black. As you point out yourself, it doesn't necessarily if you consider the average black person. The average black person is not a gang member, not a criminal and doesn't hang out with those groups. It may very well be that for such a person the police are a bigger risk than criminals. It's simp…

Is the black person that gets into deadly altercations with the police an “average” black person?

Of the two incidents that have caused much civil unrest lately (enough to be heard of on this side of the Atlantic) there's been one walking catalogue of locally available illicit substances (per the autopsy), and another one passed out drunk driver, with both of course resisting arrest after it is inevitable (with one of them also trying to use a police weapon in the process). Could those be just about anybody? “Average”, really?

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#217

Post by jorblumesea » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #181

jorblumesea wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe has a huge leg up on this problem due a variety of factors. One of which is relatively homogeneous population, which has historically made it easier to make decisions, approve/fund social programs and also not treat fellow citizens as "the others". Ethnicity and citizenship are closely linked. The US has always had this exclusionary divided culture due to its diversity and racism. It makes it hard to fix some…

And the Roma have never had a problem with systemic racism?

On the level of black Americans? Probably not, no. Literal slavery is not the same level of oppression as discrimination.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#218

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 5:35 PM UTC

number364789 wrote: post #209

dragonwriter wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think you have to consider portrayals in pop culture as a factor. Sure, but pop culture in large part expresses and transmits preexisting stereotypes (and even when it doesn’t, it is perceived through the lens of those stereotypes.) I'm not saying it's not involved, just that it's not the source.

I agree. I guess the part I'm trying to explore is, when given a stereotype, whether the group that is the target of that stereotype seeks to try and change the stereotype, or exploit the stereotype for personal gain. It seems that a lot of white Americans, and (likely) a smaller number of black Americans, made a lot of money in the 90s (and probably today) exploiting the stereotype of urban black communities having…

> the stereotype of urban black communities having a lot of violence

Urban black communities had (and have) a lot of violence. That's a fact, not a stereotype.

The stereotype is that this is due to the inherently violent, unintelligent, morally inferior nature of Blacks.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#219

Post by larrik » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

bsanr wrote: post #191

kens wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another weird thing about the NYPD is that each police officer gets 20 so-called "get out of jail free" cards to give to friends and family. The recipient can show the card to the police if pulled over and use the card to "wiggle out of minor trouble". https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42780382

That's a joke, right? Police aren't so stupid to have institutionalized petty corruption with an actual laminated pass, right?

It's not typically laminated, usually the cop is supposed to take it and call the person who handed it out (or tear it up).

This is very real, though.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#220

Post by JamisonM » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

centimeter wrote: post #201

pjc50 wrote: post #22

> “I blame myself,” she kept saying. “I never let him out on Halloween. A bunch of Black boys together. I shouldn’t have let him out. But he begged me.” Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police. (Just to spell it out: this is why so many BLM activists feel comfortable saying "abolish the…

> because from their point of view the police are the people most likely to assault or kill them or their children on the street This is a delusion - they are at least 2 orders of magnitude more likely to be assaulted or killed by another (non-police) black person. This is yet another scenario where a relatively minor source of risk gets vastly disproportionate coverage and almost everyone falls for it. ETA: it’s fun…

Actually it is only one order of magnitude.

But the more important factor is that in most homicides the victim and the perpetrator know one another. On that basis minorities, and particularly middle-class and up members of minority groups, have good reason to be more concerned about abuse and/or murder at the hands of authorities as a more important consideration than truly random violence.