Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation • Hacker News Board

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#161

Post by automated_toast » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 4:57 PM UTC

rantwasp wrote: post #73

automated_toast wrote: post #8

I for one am ecstatic about this. I want less competition for my role, not more. It is hard to compete when the top 5% of every other economy comes in and crowds me out.

this is the type of short time thinking that gets you in trouble. you’re not wrong that you’re going to do great for a while but when big tech starts moving operations overseas or in Canada you will see the macro result of this - and you’re not gonna like it

Short time means 10-20 years, plenty of time for me to sort things out for myself.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#162

Post by btilly » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 4:58 PM UTC

sjg007 wrote: post #26

btilly wrote: post #6

H1B visas provide employers every incentive to lie to import cheap talent and work them hard. There are ways to meet the very real need to import the best brains from around the world. But H1B isn't set up to do this very effectively. Off the top of my head, a better option would be to allow immigration with a $60k bond to the government that has to be paid down at $1k/month by the current employer. With the employee…

What would a bond accomplish? It seems easily gamed by say an insurance company that would pay the bond for premiums.

The bond would serve two purposes.

The first purpose is to pay for background checks and any costs that the immigrant might incur in the USA. (For example it would pay for deportation if the immigrant broke the law.)

The second is to serve as proof that the immigrant is enough in demand that the government should believe we get a net positive from their admission to the USA. And not exactly onerous proof - it is only a fraction of what has to be paid in salary and benefits.

Also note that this is only a partially baked proposal. I am sure that there are much better options than this, just as this is would be likely to work better than the current H1B program does.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#163

Post by georgeburdell » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 4:58 PM UTC

gbronner wrote: post #5

H1B is terrible for the employees, and for those who work alongside them. Companies try to slow down green cards, and use H1Bs as virtual indentured servants. They also fake looking for Americans- in practice, many of the jobs are earmarked for a specific person, and you are wasting your time applying for it. Losing your job as an h1b requires you to leave almost immediately, which isn't great for anyone. Hopefully t…

When I was a new grad, I interviewed at Qualcomm for an embedded software job. I studied hardware, and was very up-front with the hiring manager in the phone screen, and he responded “not to worry about it”. I was flown out to do an on-site interview, and the first thing that struck me, sitting in the lobby for 20 minutes while my first interviewer arrived, was that 100% of the employees who walked through the front door were Indian. The interviewers were all Indian (except HR, who was white) and several of them mentioned they were H1B’s. Anyway, I apparently failed the interview, mostly theoretical CS, so horribly that they cut the day short and dismissed me after lunch.

I wonder sometimes if the hiring manager was incompetent or was just using me as justification that no Americans could do the job

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#164

Post by copperx » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 5:00 PM UTC

mehrdada wrote: post #123

quineoa wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it ridiculous to consider that you fail your interviews because you’re not as good on a global level because some countries have better work ethic than others and better education systems than others even if America considers them to be “lower than”. Adobe and Microsoft CEOs went to the same high school and it wasn’t in the US ;) - jealous American student

Or you may fail at interviews because for you it’ll be conducted in English vs their native language. Not a hypothetical. At least an anecdote. Old colleague casually admitted to this despite company policy. Also note that most interviews are known to be more extreme than the actual job needs: e.g. leetcode is the interview; random CSS manipulation is the actual job. I wonder how hard would it be to teach a top 15% h…

Top high schoolers can develop algorithms. The average high schooler can manipulate CSS, no problem.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#165

Post by automated_toast » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 5:00 PM UTC

adrr wrote: post #138

chabons wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source for that "the pay is always lower" comment? As far as I know, visa status doesn't affect compensation for employees in the same full-time role at FAANG + Microsoft, though I only have direct experience with one of these companies.

All the h1b salary data is public. If you search any of the Faang companies, the salaries seem in line with market rates. I would also love to see a study that shows otherwise.

Is the salary public or also the stock options?

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#166

Post by totalZero » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 5:01 PM UTC

guyzero wrote: post #127

automated_toast wrote: post #8

I for one am ecstatic about this. I want less competition for my role, not more. It is hard to compete when the top 5% of every other economy comes in and crowds me out.

Unbelievable how naked the anti-immigrant sentiment from you and numerous other commenters. I'm honestly shocked.

This policy change will have a far-reaching impact on immigrants' lives, but it will also have an impact on the lives of non-immigrants. In light of that, you cannot reasonably argue that non-immigrants (or immigrant citizens) should be silent about H1Bs.

Moreover, an individual can collaborate constructively with immigrant coworkers on a personal level, while also advocating politically for a more restrictive immigration system.

There is nothing unethical about that. The role of government is to protect the natural rights and interests of its own constituents.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#167

Post by umvi » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 5:02 PM UTC

christiansakai wrote: post #142

umvi wrote: post #78

There are 2 sides to every coin. It can be frustrating/demoralizing to American software developers as well, when they go to interview for a job, to see they are competing with an absolute flood of Indian and Chinese H1Bs. Then, when all of your interviewers are Chinese and Indian as well and you don't get the job, you sort of feel like the victim of favoritism and that you've been pushed out of your own country's in…

Well if you don't perform well on interviews then why expect we hand the job to you? These Indians, Chinese, Russians, Brazilian developers are more willing to grind Leetcode and study until insanity (solving 300 Leetcode problems is not uncommon) and will kill majority of interviews out there. They came here to study hard, from 3rd world countries, and they did it. Study hard, work hard, be smart, and we welcome you…

Sure, but when the interviewer is foreign and speaks broken or thickly-accented English that is difficult to understand, I'm going to be disadvantaged (all other things being equal) compared to my H1B competitors who can be chums with the interviewer and reminisce in their mother tongue.

It's a self-reinforcing feedback loop.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#168

Post by pluto9 » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 5:02 PM UTC

rantwasp wrote: post #102

president wrote: post #38

While Andrew Ng is devastated that an H1B worker and their family has to pack their bags and return to their home country, one American worker will have the opportunity to enter the job market and feed his/her family. EDIT: Unfortunately, we find ourselves in a situation where many engineers on HN are H1B workers themselves or start-up owners/affiliates who benefit and profit off of H1B workers so it's obvious that I…

yeah no. that’s not how life works. we like to believe that we are all equal and interchangeable but the reality is that if you’re comparing the quality of people that come in on an H1B in tech with the average joe in the US you’re going to have a brutal awakening. most people that have the skills have a job.

The H1B worker isn't competing with the average Joe, he's competing with the Joe who's qualified to do the job, but didn't get it because the employer preferred someone with no leverage who can be easily controlled and underpaid.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#169

Post by geebee » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 5:03 PM UTC

christiansakai wrote: post #142

umvi wrote: post #78

There are 2 sides to every coin. It can be frustrating/demoralizing to American software developers as well, when they go to interview for a job, to see they are competing with an absolute flood of Indian and Chinese H1Bs. Then, when all of your interviewers are Chinese and Indian as well and you don't get the job, you sort of feel like the victim of favoritism and that you've been pushed out of your own country's in…

Well if you don't perform well on interviews then why expect we hand the job to you? These Indians, Chinese, Russians, Brazilian developers are more willing to grind Leetcode and study until insanity (solving 300 Leetcode problems is not uncommon) and will kill majority of interviews out there. They came here to study hard, from 3rd world countries, and they did it. Study hard, work hard, be smart, and we welcome you…

I have no problem with private companies deciding who gets aa job at that company based on leetcode style tests. I have a huge problem with private companies deciding who is allowed to enter work, and remain in the united states based on leetcode style tests.

Somehow, private companies have convinced a large share of the US public that a person who opposes corporate control over the immigration system (and an immigrant's life)is somehow "anti-immigrant". It is one of the great PR coups of our era - though, like many campaigns of disinformation and slander, it did get an assist from a number of genuinely anti-immigrant jackasses who vocally criticized the program.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#170

Post by kache_ » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 5:04 PM UTC

hedora wrote: post #80

dclowd9901 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say this like it’s that easy. We have remotes working in Singapore and Australia, and it is a far cry from “easy” to work with these people either due to timing constraints, language barriers or other aspects that disrupt fluid communication.

Timezones are the biggest issue from what I’ve seen. People can learn English, and get used to video calls / written communication. I wonder why more companies don’t outsource to Canada and South America (or the Midwest, for that matter.)

They do. I've been seeing a lot of remote companies hire aggressively within Canada.