Deus Ex at 20: The oral history of a pivotal PC game • Hacker News Board

Re: Deus Ex at 20: The oral history of a pivotal PC game

#111

Post by ohyes » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 8:46 PM UTC

Wohlf wrote: post #91

golergka wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Game graphics standard were changing much more rapidly back then. Games released in 1995 and 2000 look much more different than games from 2015 and 2020.

Couldn't a few artists and level designers in 1995-2000 crank out a whole lot more finished products than ones in 2015-2020 though? Seems like you need entire teams to make one level in modern games.

In 1995 individuals would crank out doom WADs and marathon maps like it was nothing. 2.5D was a sweet spot for ease of making something. As a tween with no artistic skill and the family computer I could make maps and mods and texture stuff.

Things got more difficult when everything became legitimate 3D because of unreal and quake. It still happened but IMO was a much steeper curve.

Re: Deus Ex at 20: The oral history of a pivotal PC game

#112

Post by hyperman1 » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 9:16 PM UTC

411111111111111 wrote: post #110

hyperman1 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. First you hide in the closet while your brother goes on a slaughterfest because he can't die until the script says he does. When bro, the great pacifist, has killed absolutely everything in the hotel, walk out together with him through the front door, where he spontaneously drops dead for no reason at all because the script says he should. I did love that game

Pretty sure he survived if you left through the window after killing everyone. You meet him again later iirc, though only very briefly.

That's correct. But where's the fun in that ;-)

Re: Deus Ex at 20: The oral history of a pivotal PC game

#113

Post by redxdev » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 9:17 PM UTC

ajsharp wrote: post #89

Deux Ex felt then and still today like a gift where story was everything, right before online/multiplayer completely transformed the industry, and for a good ten years single player was more or less an afterthought. I've never been so engrossed in a storyline as I was when I played Deus Ex. I re-played it a few years ago and I was shocked how satisfying it still was. I don't work in gaming, and I haven't been an avid…

The problem with being on the outside of the industry (or not being a gamer) and looking into it is that most of the social media and news presence is around the big name multiplayer and blockbuster titles. That doesn't mean story-focused games don't come out, just that they don't garner attention outside of the gaming sphere.

A short list of ones to look into, just to name a few:

Disco Elysium - 2019 - A _very_ weird RPG where you play an alchoholic amnesiac detective and where your skills are more aspects of your personality than abilities. The writing is so incredibly strange and wonderful that I'm not sure quite how to describe it. Your own personality traits sometimes talk and may try to convince you to be a socialist.

Outer Wilds - 2018 - A game about exploring a small simulated solar system for the purpose of simply learning more about it. There's a lot to this game, but because the entire purpose of the game is exploration and learning about the world _everything_ is a spoiler so I won't say any more.

A Plague Tale: Innocence - 2019 - Stealth-focused fantasy/adventure game set in the 1300s in France.

Undertale - 2015 - Another game that's hard to describe, don't be put off by its look but it absolutely lives and dies by its story. Especially since there are some very important gameplay elements that blend into the story.

Mass Effect 1-3 - 2007-2012 - Even if ME3's ending is widely panned, the rest of the series is absolutely story-focused and I figure I should mention some true AAAs that are known for story.

NieR: Automata - 2017 - philosophical weirdness about androids and machines wrapped up in a pretty good action game.

Bioshock 1-2/Infinite - 2007-2013 - Hard not to mention these in a thread about writing and Deus Ex, seeing as this series also has roots going back to Looking Glass, Thief, and System Shock.

Re: Deus Ex at 20: The oral history of a pivotal PC game

#114

Post by FakeRemore » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 9:38 PM UTC

akhilcacharya wrote: post #20

eyerony wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it wasn’t until my sixth or seventh play through that I finally felt like I’d found everything in that game. There’s just so much in it, and it’s content to let you miss most of it if you want. IIRC there are a three or so main routes through that first level (in the front, through the tunnel, climb the side), plus a couple optional side-areas.

It was this conversation [0] that convinced me the game was something special (albeit poorly aged today!) Also in Hong Kong (and a spoiler) was this way of completing an objective that I didn't realize was possible until I saw it on YouTube [1]. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKF0IYwhrjk [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT7sjoH8Sqc

I always figured the bartender was just another philosophy or sociology or political science major who couldn't find a better job. Which I'd say is also a relevant modern issue. I know plenty of college students and grads working shit jobs.

Re: Deus Ex at 20: The oral history of a pivotal PC game

#115

Post by elcomet » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 9:57 PM UTC

falcor84 wrote: post #107

hibikir wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money not being an issue can still happen: See Valve, which have a money printing machine in Steam, along with a few long living, lucrative games. Work on Half Life 3 never really stopped , and we had a 13 year wait between Half Life Alyx and Half Life 2, episode 2. Sources say that the internal standards for a Half Life 3 are so high, it led to many restarts and a lot of work being thrown away. But the real reason w…

>A linear increase in team size gets you a geometric increase in coordination costs. You mean quadratic, no?

Geometric means exponential so it's not the same as quadratic (which means squared).

Re: Deus Ex at 20: The oral history of a pivotal PC game

#116

Post by akhilcacharya » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 12:19 AM UTC

411111111111111 wrote: post #110

hyperman1 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. First you hide in the closet while your brother goes on a slaughterfest because he can't die until the script says he does. When bro, the great pacifist, has killed absolutely everything in the hotel, walk out together with him through the front door, where he spontaneously drops dead for no reason at all because the script says he should. I did love that game

Pretty sure he survived if you left through the window after killing everyone. You meet him again later iirc, though only very briefly.

That's weird, I remember doing the opposite - he only survives if you fight it out with him. Is GP's save bugged or am I having Mandela effect?

States as such here (Spoilers, of course): [0]

[0]: https://deusex.fandom.com/wiki/Paul_Denton#2052

Re: Deus Ex at 20: The oral history of a pivotal PC game

#117

Post by Grimm1 » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 12:26 AM UTC

clarry wrote: post #84

dageshi wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hardly anyone is doing that. But, evidently, a lot of gamers want that. Not enough really, we've had the Deus Ex reboot (Human revolution), Dishonored, Prey and their respective sequels, they're all great games but they didn't do amazingly, they mostly did "ok", they're all now on hiatus with their studios working on other franchises. I think these games (immersive sims) are actually pretty difficult to make and th…

I haven't played Dishonored or Prey but if HR is any indication, then they aren't all that great. No comparison to Deus Ex.

I thought HR was fantastic and was happy with Mankind Divided, I'm disappointed we won't see the reboot finished. I'd love if it lead into a modern reboot of the original DeusEx.

I think your criticisms of the RPG element, which is what the xp pop ups and stuff were, are overly harsh. I would have been happy without timit actions but they were all the rage when HR came out, so I can forgive Eidos for also doing them.

Re: Deus Ex at 20: The oral history of a pivotal PC game

#118

Post by Grimm1 » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 12:28 AM UTC

dageshi wrote: post #100

clarry wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And that's why they won't make any more... you'd be mad to try and do another immersive sim. To be clear, I don't think they even tried, as far as DX:HR is concerned. Instead, it looks like they tried hard to borrow ideas from these mainstream console games and made an anti-immersive "sim" that constantly takes you into third person, floods the screen with XP & loot popups and other UI noise, replaces melee weapons…

A triple A game isn't viable on PC alone nowadays, it has to release on console and hence has to account for what modern (both PC and console) players expect. You're claiming to be a fan of this niche but haven't played any of the major releases in it from the past 10 years (Dishonored 1 & 2 + Prey), if you haven't played those games as a fan of the genre then what chance does the genre have? These were big games, ma…

The Witcher 3 was one of the most successful games in a long time, I don't really get this idea that the genre is dead.

Re: Deus Ex at 20: The oral history of a pivotal PC game

#119

Post by barbasosi » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 3:40 AM UTC

satvikpendem wrote: post #54

trabant00 wrote: post #6

> ‘You can make any game you want, you can take as long as you want, and money’s not an issue’. > ‘Just run the studio, we’ll pay the bills and keep you isolated from anything that’s happening up here in Dallas’. I don't think this can happen today and I also believe this is the reason we don't see anything close to the original Deus Ex.

It really depends on the developer. Look at Star Citizen. Self funded to 300 million dollars and still it seems to be stuck in development hell, with Chris Roberts creating yet more feature creep. I say this as a fan of the game but even I can concede that he wants to make the ultimate space simulation game which just isn't feasible with how long it would take in reality.

I don't know how Star Citizen is going to hold off against Elite Dangerous. It's probably great for Chris to actualize his dreams, but he should realize he's doing in on somebody else's dime. Let's be honest, the space sim has generally one viable gameplay loop formula (the 4Xs, as a puny individual and then as a collective). I've played a few, and by far I liked ED the most (in its execution) and even then, it devolves into farm fest. Which I assume Star Citizen is going to turn out anyways. In the coming ED update they would be similar in terms of features.

I'm saying it's not making me want to play Star Citizen at all (unless if I backed the game, that would be a different story).

Re: Deus Ex at 20: The oral history of a pivotal PC game

#120

Post by barbasosi » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 3:44 AM UTC

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #56

trabant00 wrote: post #6

> ‘You can make any game you want, you can take as long as you want, and money’s not an issue’. > ‘Just run the studio, we’ll pay the bills and keep you isolated from anything that’s happening up here in Dallas’. I don't think this can happen today and I also believe this is the reason we don't see anything close to the original Deus Ex.

We get games in that spirit once every couple of years, actually. Prey (2017) was a fine successor to the Deus Ex tradition, for example.

I don't know, I don't see the similarity. I didn't really like Prey (or any prop hunt games for that matter). It's a new genre mix. I guess I can see the appeal.