Apple announces it will switch to its own processors for future Macs • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple announces it will switch to its own processors for future Macs

#701

Post by jacurtis » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 10:11 PM UTC

ianhowson wrote: post #650

Teknoman117 wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully expect any reduction in costs for Apple will get sent to their shareholders, not the consumers.

Bingo. Estimates vary wildly, but I've seen figures saying that Axx CPUs cost Apple about $50 each. Even if it's more like $100, that's still an insane amount of additional profit per unit to be extracted. They don't need to deal with single-supplier hassles and they get much more control over what cores go into their SoC. This is sort-of-OK for consumers but amazing for Apple and its shareholers.

You could also argue that significant cuts to costs of already-profitable Mac computers, could lead to significantly higher sales volumes.

Greater marketshare also provides more value to shareholders meaning that shareholders still win, as do consumers.

More people with macs (and probably iPads/iPhones) would also increase other profit centers for Apple such as services (their highest profit center), warranties, and accessories. The profits and loyalty from these could easily far outweigh the $100-$300 of extra margin they might gain from keeping Mac prices the same.

Meaning that price cuts to macs might actually be more strategically beneficial (to EVERYONE) than hoarding higher margins.

Re: Apple announces it will switch to its own processors for future Macs

#702

Post by mstibbard » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 10:11 PM UTC

mcot2 wrote: post #674

Now that it’s literally all the same can we please get an iPad Pro that runs Mac OS when docked into a nice keyboard/trackpad base?? I would get rid of my non-work 13inch mbp if this was the case.

The redesign for Big Sur leads me to believe this is the direction they are heading. It has a "made for touch" look.

Re: Apple announces it will switch to its own processors for future Macs

#703

Post by jlarocco » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 10:13 PM UTC

vessenes wrote: post #305

Commenters here seem dubious. I’ll take the contra-position. This feels to me like it’s going to be great; a big win for consumers and developers. Current A12z chips are highly performant; Apple is roughly one chip cycle ahead on perfomance/watt from any other manufacturer. I presume their consumer hardware will launch with an A13Z, or maybe an A14 type chip. Apple has consistently shipped new chip designs on time; I…

> One interesting question I think is outstanding - from parsing the video carefully, it seems to me that devs are going to want ARM linux virtualized, vs AMD64. I’m not highly conversant with ARM linux, but in my mind I imagine it’s still largely a second class citizen — I wonder if systems developers will get on board, deal with slower / higher battery draw intel virtualization, or move on from Apple.

Somewhat ironically, I think it's mostly the languages trying to be safer alternatives to C that are most behind on supporting ARM.

I've done a little bit of Lisp development on my Raspberry Pi (with SBCL and Emacs/Slime), and in most cases I don't have to change anything moving between my AMD64/Linux desktop, Intel/OSX MBP, and ARM64/Linux Raspberry Pi. And that's even when using CFFI bindings to C libraries.

I'm not sure SBCL's ARM backend is at the same level as the x86 backends, but it works well, and there's on going work on it.

Re: Apple announces it will switch to its own processors for future Macs

#704

Post by jimnotgym » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 10:15 PM UTC

vessenes wrote: post #305

Commenters here seem dubious. I’ll take the contra-position. This feels to me like it’s going to be great; a big win for consumers and developers. Current A12z chips are highly performant; Apple is roughly one chip cycle ahead on perfomance/watt from any other manufacturer. I presume their consumer hardware will launch with an A13Z, or maybe an A14 type chip. Apple has consistently shipped new chip designs on time; I…

> those complaints are 100% down to being saddled with Intel.

And yet the new Macbook pro base models feature an 8th Gen Core i5. That is 2 generations behind the bleeding edge. I think some people might be experiencing the speed problems you described because their machine has an old gen processor in a shiny new box

Re: Apple announces it will switch to its own processors for future Macs

#705

Post by tolmasky » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 10:15 PM UTC

vessenes wrote: post #305

Commenters here seem dubious. I’ll take the contra-position. This feels to me like it’s going to be great; a big win for consumers and developers. Current A12z chips are highly performant; Apple is roughly one chip cycle ahead on perfomance/watt from any other manufacturer. I presume their consumer hardware will launch with an A13Z, or maybe an A14 type chip. Apple has consistently shipped new chip designs on time; I…

I haven't felt particularly constrained from CPU in a long time. My main issues have been with RAM (thankfully the new MacBooks finally started supporting 32GB of RAM), and GPU, which ever since Apple has been in a fight with NVIDIA has been miserable. It's not just that Apple doesn't use NVIDIA, it's that they won't allow them to ship their own drivers for it.

I just want to plug in an eGPU to an RTX 2080 card. Instead, you have this incredibly limited set of officially supported cards the are also hyper expensive. Black Magic stopped making their eGPU Pro, so even if money is no object you can't get a great laptop GPU extension that supports their XDR displays.

Now, you might be saying, if you want a great GPU why are buying a laptop? Well, 1) even if I were to get the one model of Mac that allows me to do something interesting with GPUs (Mac Pro), I still can't install the NVIDIA cards I want. And 2) laptop + great eGPU is a great setup that is supported in the non-Mac space, so it is not a bizarre request.

All of this to say: the ARM stuff is fine, but it won't really move the needle for me, and doesn't address any of my performance issues, and I would argue a lot of the performance issues a lot of people actually have (especially graphics artists).

Re: Apple announces it will switch to its own processors for future Macs

#706

Post by robocat » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 10:16 PM UTC

jl6 wrote: post #578

eanzenberg wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They already have a mobile chip that is as fast as an active-thermally cooled notebook chip.

"As fast" on specific curated use cases. Show me an Apple chip that beats any laptop on 7zip.

Actually the zip algorithm is a perfect candidate for dedicated silicon of a dedicated instruction.

I read about a chip that had that feature yesterday but I can’t find the link unfortunately.

Re: Apple announces it will switch to its own processors for future Macs

#707

Post by frank2 » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 10:17 PM UTC

paulpan wrote: post #670

liamness wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The other unspoken risk is that while Apple may be vertically integrating its SOC, it still relies on a fab like TSMC. Intel's recent problem is rooted in their inability to move off legacy 14nm fabrication process. TSMC may have done great in 7nm and now to 5nm transition, but what happens if/when they stumble? Would Apple also want to acquire them or build its own fabs to mitigate this risk? Surely this is an adv…

Valid point as a GF-tied AMD would not be in the same position as today. That said, what are the other options if not TSMC? Besides Intel, Samsung is only other cutting-edge option. Intel's 7nm would be technically on par with TSMC's 5nm (marketing names aside). https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/7_nm_lithography_process There is a chance, however unlikely, that TSMC's 3nm push will run into issues and be delayed. Would cr…

>Apple would pay Intel to fab their SOCs.

Why would Intel agree to that? Have they ever fabbed any other companies design?

Re: Apple announces it will switch to its own processors for future Macs

#708

Post by tspike » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 10:17 PM UTC

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #679

klelatti wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I expect we'll see are ARM chips that are power and performance competitive with x86 chips only for specific curated use cases. Sorry but there is no justification for this. With the same thermal constraints there is every expectation that an Apple / Arm CPU would be more performant and efficient than a comparable x86. Why? Because aarch64 doesn't have the historical legacy that x86 has and Apple has already s…

The comparison is a bit unfair. x86 is like a decade older than ARM. Not that much in retrospect. aarch64 is as "free of historical legacy" as x86_64 is (that is: not at all free). There is lot of cruft and even multiple ISAs in aarch64 (e.g. T32/Thumb). And the CISC vs RISC arguments are questionable, seeing that Apple has done the migration in both directions by now.

I noticed that Apple made absolutely no mention of ARM in their keynote. Seems like they're trying to whitelabel it for brand benefits as well as to divorce themselves from any expectations around standards?

Re: Apple announces it will switch to its own processors for future Macs

#709

Post by jason0597 » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 10:18 PM UTC

ghostpepper wrote: post #340

fomine3 wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this is WWDC...

Sure, the D stands for Developers, but how many of those developers care about things like CPU microarchitecture? Aren't they mostly web/app developers?

...Why is this being downvoted?

Re: Apple announces it will switch to its own processors for future Macs

#710

Post by jiggawatts » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 10:18 PM UTC

pier25 wrote: post #676

old-gregg wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll bite. > Current A12z chips are highly performant; Apple is > roughly one chip cycle ahead on perfomance/watt from > any other manufacturer. We haven't been able to compare them. Micro-benchmarks do not count because mobile versions of Apple chips haven't been designed for desktop requirements. People love comparing CPU cores with micro-benchmarks, but the hardest thing for a modern desktop/server chip is to feed…

> Look, AMD is not stupid, and they're on the same node Apple will be using Could you elaborate? What do you mean with the "same node"?

They're both making 7nm chips at the same TSMC fabs. Essentially, Apple will not have a "process advantage" over AMD. They may release their desktops chips on the latest 5nm TSMC process to get that "wow" product and make a good initial impression, but AMD will be right behind them with the equivalent desktop x64 chips. The current rumor is that late 2021 or early 2022 is when AMD will have a "Zen 4" on 5nm, which will almost certainly blow the pants off everything else on the market at the time.