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Apple announces it will switch to its own processors for future Macs

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Re: Apple announces it will switch to its own processors for future Macs

#591

Post by [deleted] »

outworlder wrote: post #499
StillBored wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AMD is tiny compared to intel, the fact that they are besting them goes to show how they have been stuck for ~5 years. The real problem though, is that apple is actually designing a core 100% focused on the target market. Unlike intel, for whatever reason, and AMD which didn't have the funds to run a dedicated design team for laptop/desktops. So, I would expect the engineering tradeoffs for said laptop/desktop proces…

> AMD is tiny compared to intel, the fact that they are besting them goes to show how they have been stuck for ~5 years. I'm having trouble following the reasoning. > AMD which didn't have the funds to run a dedicated design team for laptop/desktops. They have plenty of funds for R&D. Problem is, processor manufacture goes much beyond the processors themselves. You have to design the entire manufacturing chain, and s…

[deleted]

Re: Apple announces it will switch to its own processors for future Macs

#592

Post by kps »

jimbokun wrote: post #555
kps wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't a surprise to anyone paying attention; NeXTSTEP had run on 68K/x86/Sparc/PA-RISC. Removing architecture support would have been remarkable. What's important, for those paying attention, is that Apple promoted PowerPC emulation with the first x86 Macs in OS X 10.4 and then removed it after 10.6. If you think Apple won't screw you again, well, go ahead, it's your money. [Dis]claimer: I have no long or short i…

There was almost 10 years between 10.0 and 10.7: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacOS_version_history#Releases So if you're worried about not being able to run your Intel Mac OS X software in 2030, yeah, you should probably avoid these new ARM Macs.

(1) OS X 10.0 through 10.3 were released for PowerPC only. Apple first supported x86 in 10.4 and last supported PPC in 10.6.

(2) It's not 2030. If you're reading this is 2030, HN won't let you reply. That's a separate but related problem.

(3) Time passed, so fuck you is not a customer-centered philosophy. Time passed, so I'm going to remove already shipped capabilities is a customer centered philosophy in the sense that it's centered on fucking the customer.

(4) I have an Apple IIe and a MacPro3,1 and a whole bunch in between: fool me once, shame on you; fool me fifteen times, shame on me.

[Dis]claimer: I have no long or short in AAPL. Anyone posting or voting in this thread should similarly disclose.

Re: Apple announces it will switch to its own processors for future Macs

#593

Post by rapjr9 »

Using ARM will break Intel's optimized libraries.

Intel has been giving developers free libraries for many years which use code specifically optimized for Intel processors. It seems likely that any app that uses one of these libraries will break. Even if Apple's emulator or compiler can work around these optimizations, Intel might release new versions of the libraries that will not work on an ARM processor.

Also, even ordinary changes to MacOS tend to break music apps and plugins. I would expect a change to a new CPU architecture to cause havoc there.

Any app that uses assembly code optimizations that use unique Intel instructions seems likely to break as well. Maybe Apple has perfectly emulated all Intel CPU instructions, but that seems very complex and how often does new complex software work perfectly? Having to buy/upgrade apps to run on ARM may be necessary. And will drivers for USB and thunderbolt peripherals all just work on ARM?

Re: Apple announces it will switch to its own processors for future Macs

#594

Post by klelatti »

jl6 wrote: post #537
vessenes wrote: post #305

Commenters here seem dubious. I’ll take the contra-position. This feels to me like it’s going to be great; a big win for consumers and developers. Current A12z chips are highly performant; Apple is roughly one chip cycle ahead on perfomance/watt from any other manufacturer. I presume their consumer hardware will launch with an A13Z, or maybe an A14 type chip. Apple has consistently shipped new chip designs on time; I…

Here's an analogy to help explain the skepticism: ants have amazing efficiency - they can lift multiples of their own body weight. So why can't an ant lift my car? Well, because it's too small. So let's just take the same ant design and scale it up? Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. A creature capable of lifting my car wouldn't be much like an ant. There is no guarantee that a phone-scale CPU can just become…

> What I expect we'll see are ARM chips that are power and performance competitive with x86 chips only for specific curated use cases.

Sorry but there is no justification for this. With the same thermal constraints there is every expectation that an Apple / Arm CPU would be more performant and efficient than a comparable x86. Why? Because aarch64 doesn't have the historical legacy that x86 has and Apple has already shown what they can do in the iPad etc. Sure they won't be triple digits but it will enough to be noticeable.

And, as you say, they will have the advantage of Apple's custom silicon for specific use cases. So best of both worlds.

Re: Apple announces it will switch to its own processors for future Macs

#595

Post by cududa »

sschueller wrote: post #298

They will lock down their PCs like the iPhone. Good luck booting anything other than macos or getting you Mac fixed anywhere other than Apple. No thanks, switching back to Linux. I'm done with this crap.

Uhhhh when have you been able to pop out a CPU in a laptop and replace it yourself? A decade, at least?

Re: Apple announces it will switch to its own processors for future Macs

#596

Post by chx »

pram wrote: post #424
chx wrote: post #404

I searched this thread for Thunderbolt and USB and nothing. The only way this can work if they implement USB 4. That's earlier than expected but not by much. USB 4 came out last September and everyone was guesstimating 18 months before the first systems ship with it. AMD shipping it with the Ryzen 4xxx laptop chips would've been a really big win but apparently it was too early. And now, as with Thunderbolt, it seems…

You can have thunderbolt controllers without an Intel processor, there’s nothing that precludes it from working.

There is one (as in, one) certified AMD motherboard and I can't Intel rushing to help Apple out with TB3 when they are ditching their CPU. No, it will be USB 4.

Re: Apple announces it will switch to its own processors for future Macs

#597

Post by rkagerer »

vessenes wrote: post #305

Commenters here seem dubious. I’ll take the contra-position. This feels to me like it’s going to be great; a big win for consumers and developers. Current A12z chips are highly performant; Apple is roughly one chip cycle ahead on perfomance/watt from any other manufacturer. I presume their consumer hardware will launch with an A13Z, or maybe an A14 type chip. Apple has consistently shipped new chip designs on time; I…

it’s exciting to imagine what Apple’s fully vertically integrated company could do controlling hardware, OS and ML stack

So true! But from a market dominance perspective, it's also a bit terrifying.

Re: Apple announces it will switch to its own processors for future Macs

#598

Post by Reason077 »

an_opabinia wrote: post #589
ianhowson wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, I’m predicting an MBP 13 - 16 range with an extra three hours of battery life+, and 20-30% faster. I'm predicting the opposite: you won't actually see any difference. Once you look closely at power profiles on modern machines you'll see that most energy is going into display and GPU. CPUs mostly run idle. Even if you had a theoretical CPU using zero energy, most people are not going to get 30% battery life gain…

> Apple is going to save $200-$800 cost per Mac shipped Whom is Apple going to sell binned A14s to? Where does everyone think margin comes from in the chip business?

Apple will simply use different bins in different products. The A12X is arguably a "binned" A12Z, after all. Higher bins for pro lines, lower bins for consumer lines.

Re: Apple announces it will switch to its own processors for future Macs

#599

Post by chx »

ghshephard wrote: post #586
chx wrote: post #404

I searched this thread for Thunderbolt and USB and nothing. The only way this can work if they implement USB 4. That's earlier than expected but not by much. USB 4 came out last September and everyone was guesstimating 18 months before the first systems ship with it. AMD shipping it with the Ryzen 4xxx laptop chips would've been a really big win but apparently it was too early. And now, as with Thunderbolt, it seems…

Apple is already running USB-C 3.1 Gen 2 with it's IPAD, so that's not a stretch. The DTK has two USB-C ports (10 Gbps) and two USB-A Ports (5 Gbps) - so, they definitely have a USB story.

3.1 Gen 2 is 10gbps USB + DisplayPort and DisplayPort doesn't mix -- out of the four high speed lanes it either gets two or four lanes. Now full USB 4 is a 40gbps bus with mixed PCI Express, DisplayPort and USB packets. It is not a small change.

Re: Apple announces it will switch to its own processors for future Macs

#600

Post by r00fus »

jl6 wrote: post #578
eanzenberg wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They already have a mobile chip that is as fast as an active-thermally cooled notebook chip.

"As fast" on specific curated use cases. Show me an Apple chip that beats any laptop on 7zip.

Is this a joke, what kind of usage benchmark is 7zipping large numbers of files?
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