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Mathematicians urge colleagues to boycott police work in wake of killings

nature.com

31–40 of 241 posts

Re: Mathematicians urge colleagues to boycott police work in wake of killings

#31
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except this is not how it works. We are not accurately predicting where crimes will occur, but maximizing the amounts of arrests. Indeed, sending a police patrol will only catch the kind of crime that happens in socio-economically disadvantaged communities, which in turn contributes to skewing the data to suggest that more crimes there, which leads to more policing, which leads to more crime, and so on. Meanwhile, wa…

The 'proactive' is just driving or walking around a neighborhood. It isn't (necessarily) doing things like stop and frisk or just going around accosting random people on the street.

It's not just driving or walking around a neighbourhood, it's doing your best to find the maximum amount of crime. Otherwise, you wouldn't need mathematical models in order to optimize the "efficacity" of the operation.

The vast majority of crime where police should be involved are crimes where the victim can call the police later. For those that don't fit this criteria, either police patrols are already ineffective (targeted assassinations, for example), or the police isn't being called because the victim thinks it will make the situation worse. Which in many cases is true, and I think fixing that problem would be a good step to take.

Re: Mathematicians urge colleagues to boycott police work in wake of killings

#32
post #22

This doesn't seem to make sense. By more accurately predicting where crimes will occur, the police departments can reduce the amount of patrols needed.

Not if the patrols they are sending have been taught to see all of the people in those places as targets. Police can literally make things worse. Even the victims of crime often don't want police there. This has been known in those communities for decades. It's only the most obvious, well-documented brutality that has begun to make other people aware of it. It's the broad reaction to that brutality, where other polic…

The victim's desires for police involvement is usually not very relevant. The victim can not provide any information to the police, but that doesn't mean that the police can't or shouldn't do anything.

Respecting the victim's wishes is basically giving tacic approval of spousal abuse and honor killings.

Re: Mathematicians urge colleagues to boycott police work in wake of killings

#33

This doesn't seem to make sense. By more accurately predicting where crimes will occur, the police departments can reduce the amount of patrols needed.

Except this is not how it works. We are not accurately predicting where crimes will occur, but maximizing the amounts of arrests. Indeed, sending a police patrol will only catch the kind of crime that happens in socio-economically disadvantaged communities, which in turn contributes to skewing the data to suggest that more crimes there, which leads to more policing, which leads to more crime, and so on. Meanwhile, wa…

Police patrols should be entirely proactive otherwise they are responses instead of patrols. The only point of police patrols is to have a moving and visible presence in the community.

Re: Mathematicians urge colleagues to boycott police work in wake of killings

#34

This doesn't seem to make sense. By more accurately predicting where crimes will occur, the police departments can reduce the amount of patrols needed.

But if we put the wrong numbers in, we won't get the right numbers out.

This sort of prediction depends on the data being good. That's not a given. Even the crime statistics are problematic. There is an issue with certain groups getting treated differently in arrests and convictions.

So you could have an area that doesn't have much crime reported because when crime happens it's not reported as crime. Whereas you can have other areas that have a lot more crime reported because there is less leniency given to the population.

Re: Mathematicians urge colleagues to boycott police work in wake of killings

#35

This doesn't seem to make sense. By more accurately predicting where crimes will occur, the police departments can reduce the amount of patrols needed.

The problem is, as someone in the field of AI, I can see how much overhyped low-quality products are sold to stakeholders believing they are getting a human-like or godlike artificially intelligent thing, when it's just a bunch of linear regressions or multilayer perceptrons operating on unsanitized data without proper evaluations or misleading numbers in the marketing, careless ways of separating training and test data etc.

I think what the article says is likely to be true. It's a scientific cover-your-ass label for the high-ups to be able to do whatever they want and justify it. Similar to how CEOs bring in external consultants and pay them fat money so the CEOs can now do whatever they wanted originally, but now with Big Consulting Firm's stamp of approval. You can make these "AI" models skew to the direction you want. Just as it is with statistics and p-hacking, only that the machine learning community is even less versed in confidence values and is just generally less mature in terms of best practices as it's a newer field.

And absolutely researchers should pay attention to who they work for and where the money comes from. Fundamental research is one thing, working on general AI is useful for all human endeavors just like working on energy efficiency or better cars. It's a necessary part of life that bad actors have benefits from a tide raising all ships.

But it's not the same when directly working on a project for a bad actor. Similar to how Google engineers stood up against military projects or serving the Chinese censoring machine, it is important for mathematicians and computer scientists to consider whether they are building something unethical. These are professionals, intellectuals who have more responsibility than lower paid workers. We cannot blame the cleaning personnel or the cooks at the police canteen in the same way.

It is part of one's civic duty as an intellectual to reflect upon one's societal role and impact.

Again, this is not about fundamental research, that might be used for evil purposes. It's about directly working for corrupt organizations. Whether the police in general (or which specific levels or branches) is corrupt enough to refuse working for them and how much worse they are compared to big corporations is hard for me to judge from Europe. But it's certainly something that people working for them should reflect on and make a moral choice because they are the ones who see what they actually work on. There are many places for mathematicians and computer scientists to work at and so they have the luxury to follow their conscience. And all this also applies to intelligence agencies, like the NSA and others as well.

Re: Mathematicians urge colleagues to boycott police work in wake of killings

#37
post #20

A lot of comments here are missing the point of boycotting, it's an expression of power with the concrete goal, it's not individual decisions of whether the mathematicians feel the work is "ethical". Yes, having more liberals working in policing is probably more inline with the goals of those liberals than not, but that's not the point of a boycott. If the police can't get the help they need from mathematicians becau…

If they can't get help from mathematicians, they'll try to do their own analysis with Excel spreadsheets or just use their gut instincts.

Re: Mathematicians urge colleagues to boycott police work in wake of killings

#38
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 'proactive' is just driving or walking around a neighborhood. It isn't (necessarily) doing things like stop and frisk or just going around accosting random people on the street.

It's not just driving or walking around a neighbourhood, it's doing your best to find the maximum amount of crime. Otherwise, you wouldn't need mathematical models in order to optimize the "efficacity" of the operation. The vast majority of crime where police should be involved are crimes where the victim can call the police later. For those that don't fit this criteria, either police patrols are already ineffective…

I guess I don't really understand what is generally wrong with a police officer looking for a crime being committed in public and then stopping it?

Re: Mathematicians urge colleagues to boycott police work in wake of killings

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except this is not how it works. We are not accurately predicting where crimes will occur, but maximizing the amounts of arrests. Indeed, sending a police patrol will only catch the kind of crime that happens in socio-economically disadvantaged communities, which in turn contributes to skewing the data to suggest that more crimes there, which leads to more policing, which leads to more crime, and so on. Meanwhile, wa…

Police patrols should be entirely proactive otherwise they are responses instead of patrols. The only point of police patrols is to have a moving and visible presence in the community.

There are many cases of reactive police patrols. For example, at a protest, as a response to a people feeling that it could help their community, and so on.

I assure you mathematicians aren't optimizing the "visbile presence in the community". That's not something you need a mathematician for. Mathematicians are optimizing the ability of police to maximize the number of arrests by deciding which areas they should patrol in order to maximize crime.

Re: Mathematicians urge colleagues to boycott police work in wake of killings

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except this is not how it works. We are not accurately predicting where crimes will occur, but maximizing the amounts of arrests. Indeed, sending a police patrol will only catch the kind of crime that happens in socio-economically disadvantaged communities, which in turn contributes to skewing the data to suggest that more crimes there, which leads to more policing, which leads to more crime, and so on. Meanwhile, wa…

Police patrols should be entirely proactive otherwise they are responses instead of patrols. The only point of police patrols is to have a moving and visible presence in the community.

Count me as one people would rather the cops just respond when called than cruise around looking for crime. If it's that important someone will call it in. If they want a better response time they can do what EMTs do and forward deploy.
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