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Deus Ex at 20: The oral history of a pivotal PC game

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Re: Deus Ex at 20: The oral history of a pivotal PC game

#101
post #80
post #60

Does anyone here notice the stylistic similarity to The Matrix? Both featured a protagonist with a trench coat and black shades. I wonder if The Matrix inspired the design team of Deus Ex in some ways.

The Matrix came ~9 months before Deus Ex, so their productions definitely overlapped but they'd have had time to assimilate some stuff if they wanted to. That said, it's more that they're both drawing on similar cyberpunk traditions. There's a clear line between the aesthetic of Neuromancer and Deus Ex / The Matrix both.

There's a Matrix easter egg in Deus Ex (the cheat code 'thereisnospoon') so they were definitely aware of the similarities. They're really only superficially similar in aesthetics and broad themes, though.

Re: Deus Ex at 20: The oral history of a pivotal PC game

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The director's cut provided non-combat solutions to some of the boss fights. But at launch, yeah, those were a huge miss if you had optimized stealth or hacking skills. It felt like a huge slap in the face to anyone that managed to bypass the boss fights in the original Deus Ex by finding the killswitch words. Penny Arcade captured the sentiment at the time pretty well: https://arewenewatthis.files.wordpress.com/2011…

In my opinion, there wasn't really an option other than to optimize for a stealthy gameplay style in DX:HR since ammunition was ridiculously scarce. (Intentionally so: https://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2011/08/17/why-i... ) There is rarely the opportunity for a stand-up gunfight, very much unlike the original Deus Ex, to break up the monotony.

Yeah, the main problem is that HR encourages much more intense character specialization than the original game. The latter half of Deus Ex has a lot of situations where you're expected to fight (although you can generally cheese your way through, run past enemies, etc.) but there's a limit to how much you can overinvest in non-combat skills, and the inventory is spacious enough that you can afford to tote around heavy weaponry to get through tough spots (any character can effectively use mines/grenades and they take up very little space).

Re: Deus Ex at 20: The oral history of a pivotal PC game

#103

Like most people today, I attempted to get into the game a few dozen times until I finally was able to get past the first level "my own way" that didn't rely on the really finicky stealth mechanics (specifically using a GEP gun to destroy the robot, then walking through the front door). The rest of the game is an absolute marvel of design. Even for a modern game the level design and depth of the story is remarkable.…

I played it so many times around 2000... Fun fact about stealth mechanic rewards in the original: they don't vanish if you did the offensive approach! You could get the most xp by first killing everyone and then run around through tunnels and obstacles to get the other half of the xp I remember the escape from his brothers apartment in hells kitchen especially fondly because of that. First you slaughter everyone so y…

No. First you hide in the closet while your brother goes on a slaughterfest because he can't die until the script says he does.

When bro, the great pacifist, has killed absolutely everything in the hotel, walk out together with him through the front door, where he spontaneously drops dead for no reason at all because the script says he should.

I did love that game

Re: Deus Ex at 20: The oral history of a pivotal PC game

#104
post #96
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It was mostly the mechanics people seemed to talk about at the time (and the graphics too). Huh. Nobody praised the graphics back then. They were dated on the day Deus Ex came out; it uses the original Unreal engine (with some tweaks) and looks just as dated. Rendering technology moved fast back then and a game as large as Deus Ex had no hope of staying ahead of the curve. Plus they had to make some compromises to…

> Huh. Nobody praised the graphics back then. I'm pretty sure they did. Unfortunately I don't still have any magazines of that era > They were dated on the day Deus Ex came out; it uses the original Unreal engine (with some tweaks) and looks just as dated. Back then "with some tweaks" and high resolution textures did make a significant differences > I recall reviews considering Deus Ex's graphics "boxy" (literally!)…

>> Huh. Nobody praised the graphics back then.

> I guess our recollections differ then.

IGN: As good as the gameplay is, visuals aren't one of Deus Ex's stronger points. Since it's built on the Unreal engine, Deus Ex isn't as pretty as other first-person games like Quake III or Soldier of Fortune. The graphics are blocky, the animation is stiff, and the dithering is just plain awful in some spots [...] (between presentation, graphics, sound, gameplay, and lasting appeal, graphics got the lowest score)

Gamespot: Deus Ex's graphics aren't very good, either. Though the game uses Epic Games' Unreal engine, which was once lauded for its exceptional visual quality, Deus Ex is actually a fairly bland-looking game because of its incessantly dark industrial environments.

(I could've sworn PC gamer also considered the graphics blocky, but I can't find that right now)

HDTP: The original in-game textures were of a very low resolution, some textures even being as low as 32x32.

For comparison, Doom (1993) had 128 px tall wall textures. Quake 3 (1999) shipped 256x256 textures and generally much better looking (and more dynamic) visuals thanks to its shaders and gamma hack. Unreal shipped hi-res s3tc textures (sorry, can't figure out what the resolution is right now).

Also I think Deus Ex used indexed (256 color) textures, while Quake 3 engine based games used truecolor. At least I remember having to dither & convert textures to 256 color gifs back when I did some Deus Ex modding..

> Basically your criticism here is few other games are Deus Ex since if everything you loved about Deus Ex was copied you'd just end up with the same game. And if that happened you'd probably also criticise it for not being original.

Absolutely not. My criticism is that very few other games try and let alone manage to put all the elements together as competently as Deus Ex did. You absolutely can deliver an original story & setting with all the elements that made Deus Ex good without making the same game. Virtually nobody today is trying.

> That's exactly it though. You don't have to love every game you grew up with but you did have to spend time playing Deus Ex because you had fewer options verses now where you are able to skip game the moment your attention wavers.

No, that's not it. You missed the part where I mention old games in plural. Yes, old games other than Deus Ex, that I played sometime post 2010 and liked a lot (more than most recent games I try to play). Deus Ex is rather the exception, in that I both played it back in the day and enjoy it a lot (even today). Most of the games that I like from that era are not games I played in that era. And most of the games I played back then are not games I would enjoy today. So the vast majority of my opinion about old games does not come from nostalgia or rose tinted glasses, but from discovering them on GOG and playing them post 2014 (which is when I created my account on GOG and started trying out these old games I never had a chance to play back in the day).

I have zero reason to believe in nostalgia making much difference in how I feel about games I play today. I can pick up a game I loved 25 years ago, and get bored in 30 minutes because it's actually not that good. I can pick up a game I never played 25 years ago and love it because it's actually good. I can pick up a game I heard about 25 years ago and wanted to play, and find out it's actually not good. I can pick up a game I hated 25 years ago and like it, because it's actually better than I thought back then.

Actually playing these games today is the best way to dispel nostalgia, and usually 15 to 120 minutes is more than enough time for that.

Re: Deus Ex at 20: The oral history of a pivotal PC game

#105
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And that's why they won't make any more... you'd be mad to try and do another immersive sim. To be clear, I don't think they even tried, as far as DX:HR is concerned. Instead, it looks like they tried hard to borrow ideas from these mainstream console games and made an anti-immersive "sim" that constantly takes you into third person, floods the screen with XP & loot popups and other UI noise, replaces melee weapons…

A triple A game isn't viable on PC alone nowadays, it has to release on console and hence has to account for what modern (both PC and console) players expect. You're claiming to be a fan of this niche but haven't played any of the major releases in it from the past 10 years (Dishonored 1 & 2 + Prey), if you haven't played those games as a fan of the genre then what chance does the genre have? These were big games, ma…

I didn't claim to be a fan. How I feel about the success potential of this niche comes merely from observing other gamers (everyone seems to know Deus Ex, Dishonored, etc. and mostly everyone praises these and would like to play more games like that; that's probably also why there's so much hype for e.g. Cyberpunk 2077, and CDPR is obviously trying to capitalize on the success of immersive 1st person cyberpunk fps-rpgs).

I might be a fan, but I rarely buy new games myself, so extrapolating anything at all from my gaming habits probably tells nothing about the market at large. I generally don't buy any new game unless it's DRM-free, has native Linux support OOTB, and doesn't come with crazy overpriced moneygrab editions or a shitload of DLC.

Re: Deus Ex at 20: The oral history of a pivotal PC game

#106
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> anything close to the original Deus Ex. Note that the original Deus Ex led to the pretty poor Deus Ex 2: Invisible War, that nobody talks about today. Deus Ex was more of an exception that anything else.

Deus Ex 2 was not a bad game. Most of the complaints centered around the negative effects of consolization (small maps, reduced detail, universal ammo system) more than anything else.

But if you can get past the consolization and peer into the story & writing.. it's nowhere near the level of Deus Ex. Most of it feels like generic scifi mumbojumbo that's there to justify the action (much like Tom Clancy's, e.g. Splinter Cell). There's hardly any of the red pills that seem applicable to today's real-world politics, few references to historic figures and factions..

I'd say it's a thoroughly mediocre game. Still, I've played through it at least two or three times, which is two or three more than the number of times I've played through DX:HR!

EDIT: Also I find it funny that they wanted to make it "family-friendly" and removed blood & gibs, but you can still massacre an academy full of kids. Happened on my previous playthrough..

Re: Deus Ex at 20: The oral history of a pivotal PC game

#107
post #51

> ‘You can make any game you want, you can take as long as you want, and money’s not an issue’. > ‘Just run the studio, we’ll pay the bills and keep you isolated from anything that’s happening up here in Dallas’. I don't think this can happen today and I also believe this is the reason we don't see anything close to the original Deus Ex.

Money not being an issue can still happen: See Valve, which have a money printing machine in Steam, along with a few long living, lucrative games. Work on Half Life 3 never really stopped , and we had a 13 year wait between Half Life Alyx and Half Life 2, episode 2. Sources say that the internal standards for a Half Life 3 are so high, it led to many restarts and a lot of work being thrown away. But the real reason w…

>A linear increase in team size gets you a geometric increase in coordination costs.

You mean quadratic, no?

Re: Deus Ex at 20: The oral history of a pivotal PC game

#108
post #2

I really hope they will make a remake of the originals. I loved Deus Ex: Human Revolution when it was out, but it’s a challenges to enjoy older games most of the time.

Your wish has been granted. Look for “Deus Ex Revision” on Steam, it's even free.

It's Windows only, but I managed to get it running inside Wineskin on my Mac :)

Re: Deus Ex at 20: The oral history of a pivotal PC game

#109
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I played it so many times around 2000... Fun fact about stealth mechanic rewards in the original: they don't vanish if you did the offensive approach! You could get the most xp by first killing everyone and then run around through tunnels and obstacles to get the other half of the xp I remember the escape from his brothers apartment in hells kitchen especially fondly because of that. First you slaughter everyone so y…

> then you run through the level for the discovery rewards such as enabling the turret which shots the now non-existing enemies Whaat. I must've played DX at least a couple dozen times and I never found a turret in the hotel?

I think you had to go through elevator, then stealth into the reception and hack a terminal in the back.

I might misremember though... It's been almost 20 years after all ;)

Re: Deus Ex at 20: The oral history of a pivotal PC game

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I played it so many times around 2000... Fun fact about stealth mechanic rewards in the original: they don't vanish if you did the offensive approach! You could get the most xp by first killing everyone and then run around through tunnels and obstacles to get the other half of the xp I remember the escape from his brothers apartment in hells kitchen especially fondly because of that. First you slaughter everyone so y…

No. First you hide in the closet while your brother goes on a slaughterfest because he can't die until the script says he does. When bro, the great pacifist, has killed absolutely everything in the hotel, walk out together with him through the front door, where he spontaneously drops dead for no reason at all because the script says he should. I did love that game

Pretty sure he survived if you left through the window after killing everyone.

You meet him again later iirc, though only very briefly.

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