The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age • Hacker News Board

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#181

Post by iamben » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 4:07 PM UTC

University was a chance for me to grow up. I was a young 18. I got to leave home, meet a bunch of people, have some fun. I grew up a lot (kinda, ha) over three years and was ready to work when I was done. I also got a degree (which was far cheaper back then).

The paper degree never really opened any doors for me - meeting people probably did, growing up definitely did. 95% of the work I got/did that followed was because I taught myself PHP (and WML, LOL) for my dissertation project. If I'd knuckled down, I could have learned that in a few weeks without the degree.

With all this in mind, how long before enterprising firms come up with a learn and work option? I'm sure with a bit of thought you could make money off a hundred or smart 18 year olds. Give them a campus environment, free meals and board, some pocket money - then 12 hours (or whatever) of lectures a week, and the rest of the time they actually work for you doing practical things, putting in to practice what they're learning (or just doing a bunch of stuff that immerses them in a real life company). After a year or 18 months, they have something for a CV, contacts, they've got to grow up a bit, real life experience... Plus no student debt etc. I'd guess the company(ies?) involved could also have their pick of the smartest ones. Everyone wins.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#182

Post by specialp » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 4:08 PM UTC

turbinerneiter wrote: post #83

Ya'll use University wrong. The classes, etc. ... whatever! During my time at Uni, I: * designed a demonstrator car frame to show off a bunch of new manufacturing techniques, which was actually built in the end * was part of a team who tested a new type of fiber optical vibration sensor on a sounding rocket * worked with a PhD student on developing a sensor to measure water flow through a tank to validate his simulat…

I had the same experience regretting my early semesters before I discovered research. It is what most of the professors are most interested in anyway. Lectures where one is sitting in a hundred+ student hall listening should 100% be replaced by online. But more resources should be given to the higher value add like research and networking.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#183

Post by geodel » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 4:13 PM UTC

FrobozzElectric wrote: post #93

dougmwne wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never shied away from interviewing a person without a degree, and honestly tried to never count that as a mark against a person since making it in the professional world without a degree is a challenge that I think shows a certain character. A lot of doors are just closed by default and that can be tough on a person's sense of self-worth. That said, I think the degree holders were better candidates usually, but I s…

> have a healthy respect for authority, and can delay gratification in the extreme. What does these qualities have to do with being a effective software developer? > The degree acts to filter out people who are too independent to fit well within a hierarchy. Wouldn't people that fall into the category of "free-thinkers" make for better engineers — or at least engineers that are more capable at creating novel solution…

> Wouldn't people that fall into the category of "free-thinkers" make for better engineers

No. However "freethinkers" can launch their own companies. It is like people say that Steve Jobs would not get hired at Apple today as if it were some great insight. It is simply company is looking for a set of skills and willing to pay money for it. SJ would rather launch a new company "Apricot' instead of working at Apple.

Besides 'freethinker' is just an euphemism and part of linkedin cliches nowadays. And the definition of free is anyway restrictive and bound to cultural and societal norms.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#184

Post by battery423 » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 4:13 PM UTC

oneplane wrote: post #152

battery423 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

University should still be open to everyone. Everyone should, independently from where they are and how rich they are, be able to study on an university if they are capable to do so. I believe that: 1. the entry barrier is not fair and designed for a very straight funnel you either fit through or not. 2. If you would open up an university even more and you don't allow anyone to missuse it (by sleeping at the universi…

You can't cater to everyone, especially if what you serve is dependant on exiting skills, knowledge or levels of understanding. One would maybe argue that a university might fix that by making dumbed down versions of things or adding extra pre-learning options but at that point it just becomes a supermarket. If you try to cover everything and everyone you just end up being mediocre which is not the point of a univers…

I'm not saying you have to dumb things down etc. but i do say that the university today is not doing enough and this in direct connection to modern technology, internet and digital.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#185

Post by throwawaygh » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 4:14 PM UTC

mjburgess wrote: post #42

hatchnyc wrote: post #10

It has always seemed a crazy disconnect to me that so many in academia will endlessly complain about the expectation that what they teach prepare their students to obtain a high-paying job while happily cashing the checks and asking for more.

I have found that academics often find their dependence on students embarrassing, and the idea of earning befuddling. The university is a kind of "eternal adolescence" which promised to provide dysfunctional high-IQs without the trappings of such obligations. With the marketization of education, academics find themselves obligated to their students (how undignified!) and for the first time needing to justify their wo…

IDK what university you're talking about.

When I was a PhD student, I worked 60 to 80 hour weeks doing research and teaching. My advisor brought in much more grant money than was spent on our lab equipment/salaries (and worked even hard than we did!) Our lab ran a (pretty healthy) profit, even before considering tuition and patent royalties.

I spent some time teaching. Again, 60 hour weeks and all of my advisees landed six figure jobs after graduating.

To the extent that the sort of institution you describe exists (low accountability), those professors are probably making less than the high school teachers in the same town. For example, an assistant professor at UCMO makes $50K-$60K; a high school teacher with several years of experience and a phd in Missouri makes closer to $70K-$80K (and with a much better pension): https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=UNIVERSITY+OF+CENTRAL+MISS... And in terms of time/effort, the two jobs are pretty comparable.

The well-paid lazy professor doesn't really exist anymore, at least in STEM. Professors are either well-paid researchers expected to bring in substantial grant money (which is a hard job with long hours), or they are relatively poorly paid teachers.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#186

Post by battery423 » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 4:18 PM UTC

turbinerneiter wrote: post #83

Ya'll use University wrong. The classes, etc. ... whatever! During my time at Uni, I: * designed a demonstrator car frame to show off a bunch of new manufacturing techniques, which was actually built in the end * was part of a team who tested a new type of fiber optical vibration sensor on a sounding rocket * worked with a PhD student on developing a sensor to measure water flow through a tank to validate his simulat…

You know, not everyone can study fulltime and take part in all other 'events'.

Would be great if that would be the case though.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#187

Post by codethief » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 4:20 PM UTC

throwawaygh wrote: post #149

funcDropShadow wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point here, however, is what University is for all people Traditionally, that was not true and still is not true in places like Germany. A university is the place where you can get the highest education of a field, or ideally where you study a field on your own. Both requires a lot of prerequisites that not everybody fulfills. I am talking about knowledge, ability to learn although something is not flashy, and…

I really like the German higher education system. Unfortunately, the USA conflates universities and applied universities. Most people who go to university in the USA, go to what would be closer to a Fachhochschule. Smaller colleges and universities that don't grant PhDs and whose professors have research output is closer to "write a paper in the summer" than "run a research lab". Most people who have negative views t…

> Unfortunately, the USA conflates universities and applied universities.

This. I wish this point were brought up more often in these discussions in favor of/against universities. People tend to have entirely different ideas when it comes to what a higher-level education should provide: For some people it's a scientific way of thinking about the world, for others it's just preparation for a future (and hopefully better-paying) job. Separating those ideas might be a good first step in solving this conundrum.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#188

Post by weston » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 4:20 PM UTC

growlist wrote: post #165

weston wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re making the incorrect assumption that racists are arguing in good faith and are willing to change their minds after a well thought out intellectual, level-headed discussion. But history has shown us this almost never happens. The majority of them are basing their hatred on emotion and not rationality. Instead, racists use their platforms to intimidate at-risk minority groups and intimidate them into silence. Wh…

I assume you include anti-white racism? Because there seems to be a lot of it about at the moment.

There’s no such thing as anti-white racism. Racism is prejudice or discrimination backed by institutional, structural power.

Therefore, a black person prejudiced against white people (as an example) is meaningless because black Americans have historically had very little power in the United States.

Racism by white americans has historically been backed up by the power of every institution in the United States, which often has meant state-sponsored violence against people of color.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#189

Post by asciimov » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 4:21 PM UTC

While there is no argument that lectures can be done online. There is so much more than lectures at campus.

One thing that isn't mentioned is Labs.

People aren't going to be doing organic chemistry in their bathroom, nor are they going to be firing clay pots in their ovens.

I know I wouldn't have had access to all of these things from home.

Re: The University Is Like a CD in the Streaming Age

#190

Post by dash2 » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 4:23 PM UTC

weston wrote: post #128

mikece wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the benefits of a college setting would be the gathering together of young intelligent people and exposing them not only to new ideas but how to evaluate, value, and compare ideas for their relative worth. I wonder how much open and free debate of ideas even exists anymore, having given way to the inculcation and indoctrination of "correct ideas." I have long believed that the best way to eradicate racism is t…

You’re making the incorrect assumption that racists are arguing in good faith and are willing to change their minds after a well thought out intellectual, level-headed discussion. But history has shown us this almost never happens. The majority of them are basing their hatred on emotion and not rationality. Instead, racists use their platforms to intimidate at-risk minority groups and intimidate them into silence. Wh…

Some contemporary evidence would make this argument stronger. (I say contemporary because I guess we all understand what Hitler did.)

My feeling is that a "platform" on Twitter where you abuse and troll people is very different from a platform where you have to step up in public, make a speech, have people challenge your points and so on.