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Ghoti

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Re: Ghoti

#221

Post by [deleted] »

Xenoamorphous wrote: post #131
dakiol wrote: post #50

As a non-English speaker, I find the English spoken by non-native speakers far easier to understand and deal with than the English spoken by Americans/British. I work with Germans, Italians, Spaniards, French, Dutch and I understand them 99% of the time. We use "normal" words (we are not fancy regarding vocabulary) and pronounce them in a non-native way (the way all Europeans that speak English understand)... But the…

I’ve experienced the same. I’d say people tend to speak way faster in their native tongue. Regardless, it is very frustrating to know the meaning and the spelling of an English word but not knowing how to pronounce it. Or the inverse, hearing a word I know but not recognising it until someone spells it for me or I see it written. I learnt most of my English in written form so this happened to me a lot when I moved to…

[deleted]

Re: Ghoti

#222

Post by imedadel »

littlecranky67 wrote: post #43
imedadel wrote: post #12

Concerning the spelling reform, is there any language that recently underwent a successful spelling reform? And by recent, I mean in the last 10 years. The thing is that with the widespread usage of the internet it seems harder to successfully reform the orthography of a language. Every language is, nowadays, in one way or another decentralized and uncontrolled by language authorities.

Not 10 years, but yeah, German was completely reformed some 24 years ago. It is still pretty major as several countries (Germany, Austria, Switzerland and others with german-speaking minorities) had to coordinate and consent. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_orthography_reform_of_1... I as a child started learning the old orthography in school, was taught the "new" one later on and had to use it and even the…

I learned German in high school so I knew a bit about the reform. Compared to French, learning how to read German didn't take more than an hour.

French is another one, however, the transition to the new orthography is still incomplete around the world. I think Frank lately enforced it at schools.

Other examples include the Berber language in Morocco and Algeria. Most people ignore spelling reforms and just pick the spelling they like most. This is mostly because the standardization of Berber came after the introduction of the internet and the proliferation of informal spelling standards.

Re: Ghoti

#223

Post by imedadel »

xenator wrote: post #57
imedadel wrote: post #12

Concerning the spelling reform, is there any language that recently underwent a successful spelling reform? And by recent, I mean in the last 10 years. The thing is that with the widespread usage of the internet it seems harder to successfully reform the orthography of a language. Every language is, nowadays, in one way or another decentralized and uncontrolled by language authorities.

Most of exUSSR countries de facto making transition from russian language to their own. Some parts of these languages wasn't used in many fields (science, street language, popular music) for 50-70 years and only exists in the books. Push is mostly centralized by government or people who pay them. Correct me if I'm wrong, russian speaking population lost about 50 millions speakers in last 10-20 years. Most of these us…

That's why I specified the last 10 years only. An example that I cited above is that of the Berber languages in Morocco and Algeria. There is the official spelling, the spelling used by renowned writers and publishers, and the "standard" used by people in their everyday life and online. No matter how many reforms are pushed, no one really cares.

If the reforms you mentioned were pushed in the last 10 years, maybe they were strictly enforced (plus, the limited free speech rights)?

Re: Ghoti

#224

Post by 082349872349872 »

fermienrico wrote: post #142

Nationalism is rampant and leaking through in this thread. “English” sucks, replace with ______ native tongue is better. Someone posted a thread about cost of their neighborhood road renovation project and immediately an Australian tells the thread that America feels like a third world country from a sample size of exactly 1. I am not even American. Everyone is getting tribal. Humanity is splitting apart with infight…

Nothing wrong with tribalism as long as we're all seeking to understand people from other tribes instead of imposing our own tribe's[1] ways upon them[2]. A little less "melting pot" and a little more "salad"[3] might go a long way towards whirled peas.

[1] and even that "own tribe" has a fractal nature. Scratch a dialect and one finds a collection of idiolects.

[2] my understanding of swiss german dialect history is that there used to be pressure to educate the lower and middle classes to speak "standard" german, as the upper classes did. Developments in the 1930s put an end to that, so now not only do we encourage Romansh https://rm.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pagina_principala (Mussolini had claimed they were just peasants who couldn't speak italian correctly) but one can tell where politicians and captains of industry grew up by how they speak. Differences are celebrated, not merely tolerated, or worse, steamrollered away. https://als.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Houptsyte gives the flavour of the dialects, but a more academic reference is required for all the isoglosses. (the variety of isoglosses also means that for informal use, SMS, internet, etc. orthography is a matter of regional taste)

[3] in which the constituents retain their identity but taste much better because they're all mixed together.

cultures are a fourier transform of humanity?

Re: Ghoti

#225

Post by vmception »

lmm wrote: post #204
vmception wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never thought of it this way. I'm American and I can understand fluent English speaking Europeans way better than I can understand British, unless that British person is from London. 70%? That's optimistic. I don't even think I am understanding words, only the most likely context in the flow of a conversation and the most likely way to react. Fluent Northern European English (Belgium, Netherlands, Scandinavia, Nort…

It's not "normal" English, it's specifically American English - a lot of Europeans have learned from (or at least been heavily influenced by) American movies etc., so they speak an American style.

Yeah yeah I didn’t think of “familiar dialect“ at the time

which is why the quotes were there to let pedantic people know I’m aware there probably is a better term

Re: Ghoti

#226

Post by StefanoC »

dakiol wrote: post #50

As a non-English speaker, I find the English spoken by non-native speakers far easier to understand and deal with than the English spoken by Americans/British. I work with Germans, Italians, Spaniards, French, Dutch and I understand them 99% of the time. We use "normal" words (we are not fancy regarding vocabulary) and pronounce them in a non-native way (the way all Europeans that speak English understand)... But the…

I think this is due to where you are on the path of learning English, and maybe because people feel more comfortable asking to repeat something when you are talking amongst not natives. Also not natives speak slower.

Comes a point where you get so used to what is, admittedly, such a weird and non sensical pronunciation, that the same mistakes I used to make as an Italian native I don't understand at all from a Spanish native that doesn't pronounce as well as I'm used to. Only after I realise what the word is I understand where they are coming from.

Also the every day vocabulary is not that big and fancy, I tend to use some "fancy" words sometimes just because that's the word I would have used in Italian, and it's correct in English, but not widely known. Then again I'm now reading Stephen king and having to use the dictionary every few pages, just because something is mostly obvious by the context but I want to double check.

Re: Ghoti

#227

Post by timonoko »

timonoko wrote: post #216

In Lapland you can often see Germans and Finns use particularly "phonetic" English. The writing system is similar, so it is easier to pronounce words as they are written, instead of trying some fancy Hollywood way. This might be the future of spoken English as most other languages have same wholesome writing system, and thus there are no ambiguities.

"Jäniskoski Bridge" comes to mind. There are no perceived differences between "b" and "p", or "g" and "k". And the "ʒ"-sound is not possible for most humans. So the correct pronounciation in year 2235 will be "prid-key".

Re: Ghoti

#228

Post by andrewshadura »

Koshkin wrote: post #98
maest wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a small category of words, at least in British English, that act as a fairly effective shibboleth when it comes to identify non-native speakers. Usually names for places, but not only: Glouchester, Worcester, Worcestershire, leftenant etc

Natives, on the other hand, tend to misspell (like you did ‘lieutenant’).

Well, TIL, but apparently leftenant used to be an acceptable spelling a century ago.

Re: Ghoti

#229

Post by [deleted] »

kjeetgill wrote: post #118
mixmastamyk wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny story, had this happen to me in a hostel in Germany. I had to “translate“ from English with a heavy Italian accent to/from English with a heavy Vietnamese accent between roommates. Basically I just repeated what each said into my California English accent with a few touch ups. Everyone finally understood. :D

I did the same for my Grandfather, with his Punjabi accent, and a Jamaican cashier.

[deleted]

Re: Ghoti

#230

Post by Kim_Bruning »

Once upon a time, I figured out the reason why 'gh' is so inconsistent. It used to be its own sound, but that sound has vanished from the English language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gh_(digraph)#English

'ti' pronounced as 'sh' is only in french loan words afaict.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin-script_digraphs#...

I don't yet know how the 'o' in woman becomes an 'i'. When I do, I'll have finally cracked the whole of ghoti.

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