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Apple removes "Gay Cure" app from iTunes

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Re: Apple removes "Gay Cure" app from iTunes

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have to respectfully disagree. I'm glad they got rid of this stupid app. It's simply hate sugar-coated with psuedo-science. If it was hateful, I agree. But I don't think the article even says what the app does, so how do we know that it was "hate sugar-coated with psuedo-science"? I assumed this app was supposed to help "ex-gays" (or whatever they call themselves now) somehow. If that's the case, it's probably on…

>it doesn't incite hate or violence This is the limit of freedom of speech under the US Constitution. This is not the limit for morally acceptable behavior, and has nothing at all to do with a private company's control over their historically tightly and arbitrarily controlled ecosystem. edit: not even this. Incitements of violence is the limit of constitutional free speech, not mere hatred. But to believe that propa…

Incitements to violence aren't even the constitutional limit of free speech. People can and advocate for the US bombing other nations into the stone age, and have done so for years.

I think it's only off limits if it's not a policy position.

Re: Apple removes "Gay Cure" app from iTunes

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term is subjective, yes, but an app that promises a Gay Cure is by definition offensive, no matter what definition of "offensive" you choose -- it's also medically dangerous, since gayness is not really a disease. So if Apple pretends that it's doing this approval for the betterment of the App Store, like a Shepard blocking out impure apps from its garden, then they'd better make sure Gay Cure apps are out, other…

> The term is subjective, yes, but an app that promises a Gay Cure is by definition offensive By your definition - it had thousands of downloads and the organisation that produced it has thousands of members who clearly do not find it offensive and that likely extends to tens or hundreds of thousands of evangelicals (if not millions). That's how subjective works.

Offended != offensive.

Re: Apple removes "Gay Cure" app from iTunes

#43

It didn't deserve to be removed in my opinion. It wasn't hurting anyone by being there. That being said, I can understand why Apple did remove it, because it doesn't make any business sense to enter a PR war over the relatively miniscule amount of profit they'd make from this app.

We should remember, an attempt at a "cure for gayness" is what killed Alan Turing. If you don't know who this man is and worship him to at least some extent, you don't really belong here IMO.

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Alan_turing#C...

Re: Apple removes "Gay Cure" app from iTunes

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are people downvoting this? I'm not saying it should necessarily be upvoted or anything, I'm just wondering what part of it people are taking exception to.

I downvoted because the statement "It wasn't hurting anyone by being there" is wrong. Organizations and programs that advocate the ability to cure homosexuality are responsible for a lot of harm to individuals who are either forced into their programs or go to them willingly because they think something is wrong with them. These programs have caused or contributed to suicides among the LGBT community , so to say they…

A little recursive perhaps, but why on earth are people downvoting this?

Parent not only responded to the question directly and cogently, but even cited sources. I'm bewildered.

Re: Apple removes "Gay Cure" app from iTunes

#46
post #45

I think its fine if apps making fraudulent claims are removed.

Except there are thousands of people that would say it isn't fraudulent. I am not defending it, but "offensive" here is subjective.

If they can present peer reviewed evidence of its efficacy then it should stay, otherwise they shouldn't be allowed to make false medical claims.

Re: Apple removes "Gay Cure" app from iTunes

#48
post #45

I think its fine if apps making fraudulent claims are removed.

Except there are thousands of people that would say it isn't fraudulent. I am not defending it, but "offensive" here is subjective.

Fortunately, Apple is able to reach an opinion of their own.

Re: Apple removes "Gay Cure" app from iTunes

#49
post #22

A part of me does support totally free speech, but the other part of me is what made me one of the demonstrators against the Oxford Union when they had invited David Irving and Nick Griffin, and also that made me be one of the many people who emailed Apple (or, more specifically, Jobs) to complain about this app.

Most of us feel the same way, but surely free speech is so much more important than these other issues.

There's a great aphorism that applies here: In theory, theory and practice are the same.

So it is with regard to free speech, and it's a thorny wicket. In a free marketplace of ideas, people are able to hear all viewpoints and select the most rational ones. Unfortunately, there are studies that seem to suggest that the repetition of a falsehood reinforces the ideas contained therein for at least some of the population. The best I can find quickly are "How Warnings About False Claims Become Recommendations: Paradoxical Effects of Warnings on Beliefs of Older Consumers"[1] and "Metacognitive Experiences and the Intricacies of Setting People Straight: Implications for Debiasing and Public Information Campaigns"[2]. (Look at the birther movement. There's an insane number of people in the U.S. who believe something to be true that is not only nonsensical but has been absolutely proven false. To many of these people, the means by which things were proven false has only reinforced their insane belief—and the more they repeat it, the more often they have a chance to convince others of their insanity being true, even though objectively it isn't.)

We know that words can wound deeply; look at the concerns over "cyber-bullying" and the reports of preteen suicides over some of those cases. As a parallel, it's illegal in every country with the concept of freedom of speech to incite a riot (even though the rioters are the ones causing the damage). As wlievens said, there's often direct consequences to hateful speech[3] that are deeply tragic.

Like corin_, I'm divided on this matter. I grew up American and emigrated to Canada as an adult. Canada has hate speech laws that can be fairly described as "prior restraint" and wouldn't pass muster in America. Those offend me as an American. But the level of discourse in Canada is, I think, better for such prior restraint. Obviously, one must be cautious in how one applies such things, but the improved discourse pleases me as a Canadian.

This is a long way to say: no, I don't think that free speech is more important than these other issues just because it's free speech. It's a complex problem without an easy hard-line solution that can be applied effectively. Because of the effects of repetition, sometimes the best way to stop hateful or stupid speech is to squelch it. And sometimes, it's the right thing to do.

[1] pdf: http://www.cerog.org/lalondeCB/CB/2005_lalonde_seminar/how_w... [2] pdf: http://sitemaker.umich.edu/norbert.schwarz/files/07_aep_schw... [3] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2358825

Re: Apple removes "Gay Cure" app from iTunes

#50
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The term is subjective, yes, but an app that promises a Gay Cure is by definition offensive By your definition - it had thousands of downloads and the organisation that produced it has thousands of members who clearly do not find it offensive and that likely extends to tens or hundreds of thousands of evangelicals (if not millions). That's how subjective works.

Offended != offensive.

Extremely relevant: http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2164
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