Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them • Hacker News Board

Re: Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them

#211

Post by RandomBacon » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 6:13 PM UTC

fermienrico wrote: post #209

RandomBacon wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to love Apple products when I was a kid. This is Apple's 1984 commercial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvjbmoDx-I They aren't the same company anymore. They started making fun of people that used other products. They started to say you can only use use Apple products this way. They started to say, "you're holding it wrong". They started to just pretend to be user-friendly and stopped actually being user-fr…

> They aren't the same company anymore. They started making fun of people that used other products. They started to say you can only use use Apple products this way. They started to say, "you're holding it wrong". They started to just pretend to be user-friendly and stopped actually being user-friendly. Any examples? I think they're pretty user friendly in many ways. As I said, they are arrogant but I am fine with th…

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Can't customize iOS without jailbreaking it

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Re: Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them

#212

Post by pinkfoot » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 6:14 PM UTC

simion314 wrote: post #208

pinkfoot wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure… So, how many different word processors and spreadsheet providers does the EU bureaucracy itself use?

I don't know, do you know and what is this relevant? They get complaints and they look at them, apply the laws for the benefit of the citizens and not for companies, like when the mobile phone companies were regulated lot of people complained that this big companies will lose too much money but still I see Vodafone and the rest thriving and us the consumer can move to other companies without any pain.

Of course its relevant: you said the EU intervenes when people complain to stop corporate dominance and abuse.

Lots of people complained. The EU did nothing. Truly - Microsoft office is as dominant as it ever was. It the EU has an anti-monopoly/dominance purpose, if MS Word/Excel/Powerpoint isn't its white whale, its hard to imagine what would be.

And the GDPR is being similarly defanged.

Re: Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them

#213

Post by RandomBacon » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 6:16 PM UTC

jonny_eh wrote: post #207

RandomBacon wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Put up a banner that says IE is not supported, download one of these browsers instead. If you say "No" because it will drive away your customers, then it absolutely is for you. It sounds like you were putting profits before principles.

And in the case of iOS, you put a banner on a website saying "Buy a similar $1K Android instead"?

A $100 Android can run a modern browser.

Re: Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them

#214

Post by Despegar » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 6:16 PM UTC

Androider wrote: post #153

codemac wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is not a monopoly! They have a majority (not monopoly) on a very specific US-based market. They aren't the only US market, and they are a small international market. Apple isn't even the #1 handset manufacturer (they are #3 or #4 depending on who you ask), and far and away isn't the #1 laptop manufacturer. The attitude that it is a monopoly is exactly the disconnect between this article and your comment. The ar…

You don't need to be a monopoly to have antitrust action taken against you, you just need to have sufficient market power and engage in behavior which is anti-competitive. House Antitrust Committee chairman David Cicilline yesterday: “Because of the market power that Apple has, it is charging exorbitant rents — highway robbery, basically — bullying people to pay 30 percent or denying access to their market,” said Rep…

Nothing David Cicilline said amounts to anything more than talk. He frequently refers to them as a monopolist in that podcast, but that means a very specific thing in antitrust law. DoJ or FTC would have to prove in court that Apple has "monopoly power" in a relevant market. Since a court will toss it out when Apple moves for a summary judgement if their antitrust theory is that Apple's 45% of the smartphone market gives them monopoly power (based on precedent), they will try to define the market more narrowly to something like "iOS applications".

But again a court is unlikely to accept that reasoning. And if you think about it for 3 seconds it's obvious why: Apple's "monopoly" was established when the App Store was launched in 2008 when the iPhone was an insignificant share of the market. That would also mean that any future product (like the AR glasses, or from any other company) would have "monopoly power" in their platform as soon as they ship 1 unit. This is obviously an absurd outcome.

Re: Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them

#215

Post by fermienrico » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 6:17 PM UTC

eyerony wrote: post #67

fermienrico wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I the only one who loves Apple products? I love MacOS. I love iOS. I love all things Apple. Customer service is totally top notch. Physical quality is excellent, of course I have my wishes and pet peeves (don’t like cold aluminum, stupid touchbar, keyboard!). I’m willing to pay even double the cost of other cheaply made products from Asus, Acer, Samsung, etc. Not to mention the whole ecosystem thing and I trust Ap…

Every other vendor (and OS) takes my time instead of my money. If I'm not forcing myself to be aware of it I can be fooled into thinking some of this time is work, but it's not—it's pure wasted time. Apple products do sometimes, too, but nowhere near as much. I wish anyone else would get good at this whole "making consumer and 'pro' devices that don't suck" game. Or if Apple'd take the Mac line back to being somewhat…

The MacPro is overpriced but they're trying to differentiate - what desktop computer has absolutely pornographic insides, full CNC metal body, display that hits all checkboxes (except for refresh rate). Nothing else out there. So, they can get away with charging more.

Consumers are kind of assholes, especially the average consumer. They demand that Apple reduce their price to make it affordable for them. Why? Why should they? If they can get by with charging more than we should blame the competitive landscape, and not the only company that's pushing the boundaries of what's possible.

Everyone else is cutting corners, selling ads, backstabbing customers.

Re: Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them

#216

Post by rbecker » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 6:18 PM UTC

YayamiOmate wrote: post #182

codemac wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is not a monopoly! They have a majority (not monopoly) on a very specific US-based market. They aren't the only US market, and they are a small international market. Apple isn't even the #1 handset manufacturer (they are #3 or #4 depending on who you ask), and far and away isn't the #1 laptop manufacturer. The attitude that it is a monopoly is exactly the disconnect between this article and your comment. The ar…

Their app store is on their devices. They forbid any other similar service. So they creted a platforn and enforce service. Thats creating playground, rules and playing the game. Remember microsoft was subjected to antitrust regulations for providing web browser with the os. This was considered unfair practice. Forcing people to give up 30 of revenue goes much much further. By giving customers no choice, it's limiting…

> Their app store is on their devices.

Their users devices.

Re: Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them

#217

Post by fermienrico » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 6:21 PM UTC

RandomBacon wrote: post #211

fermienrico wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They aren't the same company anymore. They started making fun of people that used other products. They started to say you can only use use Apple products this way. They started to say, "you're holding it wrong". They started to just pretend to be user-friendly and stopped actually being user-friendly. Any examples? I think they're pretty user friendly in many ways. As I said, they are arrogant but I am fine with th…

I'm a PC ads Can't customize iOS without jailbreaking it Antennagate

This is a weak set of arguments, no offense. I am a PC ads was almost 13 years ago. Antennagate? Samsung Galaxy Note 7? Apple also messed up their whole keyboard fiasco, but they did replace my macbook pro chassis free of cost outside of warranty. So did Samsung with their battery fiasco. Jailbreaking is done by literally impossible to see slice of the consumer base. Apple is not going to give up their T2 security and enclave and all the privacy aspects to open up their software to public hacking. This would go against the FBI case with Apple, remember?

Re: Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them

#218

Post by robert_foss » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 6:22 PM UTC

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #169

BMorearty wrote: post #32

Disclaimer: I only read the subject line and the first paragraph. Years ago, when Internet Explorer had market dominance, I was working on a website and I wanted to use a feature that IE didn’t support yet. I asked a question on a forum about how to do it in IE. One of the replies was "just stop using IE." Dude. It's not for me. It's for my customers.

Are we really comparing these two? Apple has nowhere near market dominance, in fact, they are currently in second place. IE had a much larger control of the market.

I'd rather say they have complete market dominance. People don't buy phones based on which apps are available for them. And since no alternative stores are available for Apple devices, you have no choice but to pay the Apple tax.

Re: Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them

#219

Post by JeremyNT » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 6:23 PM UTC

CydeWeys wrote: post #3

"Whining" is an overly prejudicial word choice for this title. These are legitimate issues people have with what Apple is doing, not mere whining. This echoes the "if you don't like it so much then just leave instead of speaking up" dismissal that is so commonly used as a lampshade for suppressing dissent. Not sure if that's the intent here but that's what it comes off as. And this point from the article needs to be…

> This guy doesn't understand what monopolies are and how they work. The whole point is that there are no other alternatives, so you literally cannot "just stop using them". "Just stop patronizing the monopoly" is not a strategy that has ever been successful. The monopoly needs to be broken up.

I'm all for breaking up Apple for being a bunch of abusive jerks, but they really aren't a "Monopoly" in any useful definition of the term. Android is a drop-in replacement and it has a massive amount of marketshare (sure it sucks too in different ways, and sure more competition would be better, but you certainly don't have to buy any Apple products).

The point of this article, as I read it, is that people have bought into the Apple ecosystem so hard (due to that carefully manicured Apple reputation) they fail to even consider switching to anything else or dropping support for Apple. Even developers! When I see the 1000th blog post about how crappy Macs are and how garbage Apple's walled garden is on the front page of HN, I know that countless people here will toss it an upvote and comment in agreement, but many will still tune in breathlessly for the next WDC and go purchase the next Apple device to hit the shelves.

You don't need Apple. Nobody needs Apple anything. Complaining about their practice while buying their products... well, that's basically the definition of "whining."

Switch to Linux (or Windows, if you really prefer locked down / closed source solutions). Switch to Android. Stop paying if you don't like the terms.

Re: Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them

#220

Post by Joeri » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 6:23 PM UTC

codemac wrote: post #85

CydeWeys wrote: post #3

"Whining" is an overly prejudicial word choice for this title. These are legitimate issues people have with what Apple is doing, not mere whining. This echoes the "if you don't like it so much then just leave instead of speaking up" dismissal that is so commonly used as a lampshade for suppressing dissent. Not sure if that's the intent here but that's what it comes off as. And this point from the article needs to be…

Apple is not a monopoly! They have a majority (not monopoly) on a very specific US-based market. They aren't the only US market, and they are a small international market. Apple isn't even the #1 handset manufacturer (they are #3 or #4 depending on who you ask), and far and away isn't the #1 laptop manufacturer. The attitude that it is a monopoly is exactly the disconnect between this article and your comment. The ar…

In fairness to Hey, they didn't plan to be in this situation. They thought they did everything apple wanted them to, and they spent years building this service, only to then find out apple won't allow it.

If you're going to exclude all potential products where you have to go through apple to be a major player (given the competition), you're excluding most of the software market. Maybe developers don't really have a choice?

And yeah, apple is not a monopoly, but apple/google for sure is a duopoly, and google is only incrementally better than apple.