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Towards an Untrepreneurial Economy? Rise of the Veblenian Entrepreneur (2019)

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Re: Towards an Untrepreneurial Economy? Rise of the Veblenian Entrepreneur (2019)

#21

Post by WJW »

vikramkr wrote: post #2

Truly a miracle it is to witness the birth of new jargon. For academics working on understanding things like societal/economic dynamics, perhaps take a moment to consider that for the work to have any real impact, it needs to be understood by laypeople? Biologists can get away with naming things all sort of nonsense because the everyday person doesnt interact with it, but if you're trying to highlight destructive dyn…

Complaining about jargon in a publication for professionals is like complaining you don't know who this Torvalds guy is during a discussion on the linux kernel dev mailing list.

It's not like Veblen is an obscure figure nobody has heard of in the field of economics.

Re: Towards an Untrepreneurial Economy? Rise of the Veblenian Entrepreneur (2019)

#22

Post by neilk »

This is fascinating. In passing, they mention how the highly privileged may conspicuously consume 'immaterial' goods for status, and the less privileged do more traditional conspicuous consumption of expensive goods.

So if wantrepreneurism is a form of conspicuous consumption for the privileged - or those who desire to become so - what's the equivalent for the less privileged?

I think it has to be MLM and Instagram influencing. The wantrepreneur wants to be a mini-Jobs, but the MLM/Insta dreamer wants to be a mini-Kardashian, hawking products with a glamorous image. But their desire is exploited ruthlessly by a system that promises success but will mostly drain their wallet. Nevertheless a lot of them feel the need to keep going, largely because they've publicly bought into the image.

Maybe it's about what forms of success one is exposed to and what one sees is popular among one's peers?

Re: Towards an Untrepreneurial Economy? Rise of the Veblenian Entrepreneur (2019)

#23

Post by vikramkr »

WJW wrote: post #21
vikramkr wrote: post #2

Truly a miracle it is to witness the birth of new jargon. For academics working on understanding things like societal/economic dynamics, perhaps take a moment to consider that for the work to have any real impact, it needs to be understood by laypeople? Biologists can get away with naming things all sort of nonsense because the everyday person doesnt interact with it, but if you're trying to highlight destructive dyn…

Complaining about jargon in a publication for professionals is like complaining you don't know who this Torvalds guy is during a discussion on the linux kernel dev mailing list. It's not like Veblen is an obscure figure nobody has heard of in the field of economics.

The complaint is about the entire field. There's a reason pop psych is separate from "real" psych - if fields don't learn how to communicate to the population at large and just keep research within ivory towers, then you'll just end up with increasing disconnect with the rest of the world while the narrative is increasingly controlled by unqualified but charismatic "thought leaders." This is a publication for academics, but not for all professionals, since "professionals" include a lot of practitioners that never stepped foot in an econ class but are still immensely powerful int he entrepreneurial environment. There's an entire set of stakeholders left out.

Re: Towards an Untrepreneurial Economy? Rise of the Veblenian Entrepreneur (2019)

#24

Post by PeeInTheData »

talentedcoin wrote: post #16
stupidcar wrote: post #5

It's weird to see stuff like this published as a "paper", as if it were a scientific endeavour, when there doesn't seem to be any experiment, mathematics, or even data involved. Just a lot of conjecture sprinkled with citations. It seems like the epitome of Feynman's cargo cult science. I'm actually very sympathetic with the idea being advanced, I'm just not sure what really separates this and a blog post.

A paper needs an idea that is well-thought-out and well-cited. Outside of math or the natural sciences, it does not need experiments, mathematics, or data.

Fields outside of those are either just note taking (history), subjective (music), or just nonsense (sociology, anything that ends in “studies”).

Re: Towards an Untrepreneurial Economy? Rise of the Veblenian Entrepreneur (2019)

#25

Post by jostmey »

neilk wrote: post #17
vikramkr wrote: post #2

Truly a miracle it is to witness the birth of new jargon. For academics working on understanding things like societal/economic dynamics, perhaps take a moment to consider that for the work to have any real impact, it needs to be understood by laypeople? Biologists can get away with naming things all sort of nonsense because the everyday person doesnt interact with it, but if you're trying to highlight destructive dyn…

Perhaps you are not in the intended audience? This is a social science paper. I know a little bit about economics and social science, and for me the phrase "Veblenian Entrepreneur" was immediately meaningful and helpful. It gives me a theoretical frame for understanding a whole constellation of behaviors I've personally observed, and the incentives that drive them. What I think this paper contributes is the idea of t…

Please stop throwing around the word "science" here. I see no science in this whatsoever. Science is formula for validating information requiring experiments and controls, which this does not have. Science falls within the domain of research, but not all research uses science

Re: Towards an Untrepreneurial Economy? Rise of the Veblenian Entrepreneur (2019)

#26

Post by dang »

ackbar03 wrote: post #7

Ouch. But it also seems that the quality of research is falling? I guess it's cause I come from a technical field but a paper with a bunch of text, citations, and a general concept can be called research in the business field? Is it any wonder there is so much bs out there?

"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Reflexive, generic comments are much more boring to read than they are to write, and they take threads in uninteresting directions. With a submission like this, if you don't find something to engage with in the article, please find something else to read that you do find interesting.

Re: Towards an Untrepreneurial Economy? Rise of the Veblenian Entrepreneur (2019)

#27

Post by nabla9 »

vikramkr wrote: post #2

Truly a miracle it is to witness the birth of new jargon. For academics working on understanding things like societal/economic dynamics, perhaps take a moment to consider that for the work to have any real impact, it needs to be understood by laypeople? Biologists can get away with naming things all sort of nonsense because the everyday person doesnt interact with it, but if you're trying to highlight destructive dyn…

I find it sad that after people have learned to read, they think they are 100% literate, or that looking up words from dictionary is considered a bad thing. Demanding that everything should be written in basic reading level is celebrating low literacy and ignorance.

I'm not an economist or social scientist but I understood what Veblenian means from Veblen goods and conspicuous consumption seemed familiar so I looked it up.

Re: Towards an Untrepreneurial Economy? Rise of the Veblenian Entrepreneur (2019)

#28

Post by dang »

vikramkr wrote: post #2

Truly a miracle it is to witness the birth of new jargon. For academics working on understanding things like societal/economic dynamics, perhaps take a moment to consider that for the work to have any real impact, it needs to be understood by laypeople? Biologists can get away with naming things all sort of nonsense because the everyday person doesnt interact with it, but if you're trying to highlight destructive dyn…

"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Reflexive, generic comments are much more boring to read than they are to write, and they take threads in uninteresting directions. With a submission like this, if you don't find something to engage with in the article, there are lots of other things to read on HN's front page.

Re: Towards an Untrepreneurial Economy? Rise of the Veblenian Entrepreneur (2019)

#29

Post by dang »

jostmey wrote: post #25
neilk wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps you are not in the intended audience? This is a social science paper. I know a little bit about economics and social science, and for me the phrase "Veblenian Entrepreneur" was immediately meaningful and helpful. It gives me a theoretical frame for understanding a whole constellation of behaviors I've personally observed, and the incentives that drive them. What I think this paper contributes is the idea of t…

Please stop throwing around the word "science" here. I see no science in this whatsoever. Science is formula for validating information requiring experiments and controls, which this does not have. Science falls within the domain of research, but not all research uses science

Please don't take HN threads on generic ideological tangents. They lead nowhere new or interesting.

This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Plenty of past explanation here:

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Re: Towards an Untrepreneurial Economy? Rise of the Veblenian Entrepreneur (2019)

#30

Post by dang »

stupidcar wrote: post #5

It's weird to see stuff like this published as a "paper", as if it were a scientific endeavour, when there doesn't seem to be any experiment, mathematics, or even data involved. Just a lot of conjecture sprinkled with citations. It seems like the epitome of Feynman's cargo cult science. I'm actually very sympathetic with the idea being advanced, I'm just not sure what really separates this and a blog post.

"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Reflexive, generic comments are much more boring to read than they are to write, and they take threads in uninteresting directions. With a submission like this, if you don't find something to engage with in the article, there are lots of other things to read on HN's front page.

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