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The Return of the 90s Web

mxb.dev

71–80 of 357 posts

Re: The Return of the 90s Web

#71
This seems to be one developer's wishful thinking, without any evidence presented to back up the assertion. Pointing out "hey, here's a couple websites that do server side rendering" does not a trend make.

We're ripping out webflow, if anecdata counts for anything (it doesn't). Webflow occupies the barren middle ground of "too complicated for marketing people, too simple for technical people". I find it much easier to write html than to figure out how to get their UI to make the html I want.

Re: The Return of the 90s Web

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are still creating great stuff along these lines - you just won't find it through Google or Facebook or most of Reddit. Complex, interesting hypertext creations and web sites are still everywhere. But try typing "interesting hypertext" into Google or Facebook and see where it gets you. You can't search for something that's off the beaten track. This is where directories come back in. Check some of these out: *…

What we really need is a new Google, built on open principles (decentralized / peer to peer, fully free software, backed by a nonprofit), and focused on indexing the long tail of insightful content that is neglected by Google because it lacks SEO, popularity, links, and other metrics that Google find interesting but we don't necessarily do.

Of course the problem is that if your site becomes popular it will be overrun by SEOs pushing monetized vapid content. This is how people earn money, they aren't going to stop just because you want to return to a time before they ruined the internet.

Re: The Return of the 90s Web

#73

What I miss most from the early days of the Internet is the content. It was all created with love. My theory is that the high barrier to entry of online publishing kept all but the most determined people from creating content. As a result, the little content that was out there was usually good. With today's monetized blogs, it is often content for content's sake. People don't try, or they write about topics which the…

>My theory is that the high barrier to entry of online publishing kept all but the most determined people from creating content. As a result, the little content that was out there was usually good.

The barrier wasn't that high. Making a site on Geocities, Tripod or Angelfire wasn't that difficult. Writing 90's style HTML wasn't exactly writing a kernel in C, and most of those services had WYSIWYG editors and templates anyway. Few of the people publishing to the web in the 90s were programmers, so the technical knowledge required was minimal.

And plenty of people are publishing high quality content on the modern web, even on blogs and centralized platforms. I follow writers, scientists and game developers on Twitter, watch a lot of good content on Youtube, read a lot of interesting conversations on Reddit. The fact that people publishing content nowadays don't have to write an entire website from scratch has little to do with their personal passions (or lack thereof), whether they're interesting or (and ye gods how I've come to hate this) "quirky." That's like saying writers can't write anything worth reading unless they also understand mechanical typesetting.

As far as the old content goes, of course most of it was crap. Sturgeon's Law applies to every creative medium. Most blogs were uninteresting, many personal sites were just boring pages full of links or stuff no one but the author and maybe their few friends cared about. In both cases, between the old and new web, a bias for the past (as HN tends to have) leads people to only remember the best of the former and correlate it with the worst of the latter.

Re: The Return of the 90s Web

#74
post #63

If we’re going back to the 90’s let this be your reminder we still don’t have something for web dev as easy to use as VB6.

We no longer have anything for the desktop as easy to use as VB6 (nor for mobile).

Plus ça change. :) I was just reading an article ("APL since 1978", [1]), which recounts the complaints of mainframe programmers when microcomputers were introduced in the mid-80s, because of how much harder it became to design application interfaces:

> Worse, the technical skill required to write applications suddenly increased dramatically. You needed to know about networks, how to deal with the poor reliability of shared files on a LAN — or how to construct client/server components to achieve the security, performance, and reliability that you needed. User interfaces, which were so simple on the mainframe, became an absolute nightmare as an endless procession of new GUI frameworks and UI “standards” appeared and then faded away.

[1] https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3386319

Re: The Return of the 90s Web

#75

What I miss most from the early days of the Internet is the content. It was all created with love. My theory is that the high barrier to entry of online publishing kept all but the most determined people from creating content. As a result, the little content that was out there was usually good. With today's monetized blogs, it is often content for content's sake. People don't try, or they write about topics which the…

People are still creating great stuff along these lines - you just won't find it through Google or Facebook or most of Reddit. Complex, interesting hypertext creations and web sites are still everywhere. But try typing "interesting hypertext" into Google or Facebook and see where it gets you. You can't search for something that's off the beaten track. This is where directories come back in. Check some of these out: *…

The alternative to Google for discovery is Reddit. Reddit is the modern web directory:

- Directories are Communities defined by their link rules

- Human-curated

- Easy to start a new one

- SSO across all communities

- Built-in forum technology

- Unified comment technology for every website

You can get communities like reddit.com/r/Sizz for instance or larger ones like /r/esp8266 or massive ones like /r/sanfrancisco or planet-sized ones like /r/pics. And reddit itself plays the role of a meta-directory, with little directory networks (SFW-Porn being "the pretty pictures of the world" directory network) sitting between Reddit itself and the subreddits.

Reddit is an amazing amazing thing.

Re: The Return of the 90s Web

#76
For a lot of internal corporate web applications, server side rendering is what makes most sense. These applications are always used from browsers on a company provided laptop. You don't need to worry about multiple frontends and "web scale"

Back in the day, it used be that internal apps were shitty to use, and had slow service layer code. But once the data got to the view layer, at least the pages rendered fast. Now with proliferation of SPAs, we have shitty user experience, slow backends and slow UI renders.

Re: The Return of the 90s Web

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What we really need is a new Google, built on open principles (decentralized / peer to peer, fully free software, backed by a nonprofit), and focused on indexing the long tail of insightful content that is neglected by Google because it lacks SEO, popularity, links, and other metrics that Google find interesting but we don't necessarily do.

It's a fuzzy concept, but I think you're pointing toward something there's a need for. PageRank is/was useful in a lot of ways, it's just not enough by itself. Its weaknesses have been ever more apparent, and it has become less effective over time. There are so many possible viable methods for ranking search results! Particularly now with higher level textual analysis using AI/ML/[buzzword], and perhaps more importan…

> It's a fuzzy concept, but I think you're pointing toward something there's a need for. PageRank is/was useful in a lot of ways, it's just not enough by itself. Its weaknesses have been ever more apparent, and it has become less effective over time.

Would you speak to why you think this way about PageRank? What are its shortcomings?

To me, who only paid surface-level attention to this, it seemed like Google results were best when PageRank was the dominant metric. As they moved more and more in the direction of prioritising news, commerce and the aspects we call SEO, “number of links pointing TO the resource” became less and less important in the ranking. And as that happened, the quality of results dropped, and the content silo-ing rose up.

PageRank was peer-review. SEO is “who shouts the loudest”.

Re: The Return of the 90s Web

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are still creating great stuff along these lines - you just won't find it through Google or Facebook or most of Reddit. Complex, interesting hypertext creations and web sites are still everywhere. But try typing "interesting hypertext" into Google or Facebook and see where it gets you. You can't search for something that's off the beaten track. This is where directories come back in. Check some of these out: *…

What we really need is a new Google, built on open principles (decentralized / peer to peer, fully free software, backed by a nonprofit), and focused on indexing the long tail of insightful content that is neglected by Google because it lacks SEO, popularity, links, and other metrics that Google find interesting but we don't necessarily do.

For a long time I assumed that google indexed pretty much everything it, and it was only a question of providing a specific enough set of search terms to drag up older content.

But what you hint at might be more correct these days. They are running a reverse wayback machine in that anything not changed in the last year gets removed. If you click the advanced search its "updated within" and the max timeframe is a year.

In fact it seems the date range example doesn't even work: https://developers.google.com/custom-search/docs/structured_...

If I fiddle with it, it returns a result, but I see an hit from just a few days ago at the top...

Re: The Return of the 90s Web

#79
My iPad is 10 years old and there are websites that bring it to its knees, especially mobile.twitter.com links. I don't click them anymore, it's too frustrating. Maybe web devs should be given low-end machines to work on so they can experience what their non-desktop users experience. The whole 'mobile web' distinction really shouldn't need to exist, my iPad isn't a mobile phone from 2005.

Re: The Return of the 90s Web

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are still creating great stuff along these lines - you just won't find it through Google or Facebook or most of Reddit. Complex, interesting hypertext creations and web sites are still everywhere. But try typing "interesting hypertext" into Google or Facebook and see where it gets you. You can't search for something that's off the beaten track. This is where directories come back in. Check some of these out: *…

The alternative to Google for discovery is Reddit. Reddit is the modern web directory: - Directories are Communities defined by their link rules - Human-curated - Easy to start a new one - SSO across all communities - Built-in forum technology - Unified comment technology for every website You can get communities like reddit.com/r/Sizz for instance or larger ones like /r/esp8266 or massive ones like /r/sanfrancisco o…

I don't find reddit particularly navigable nor user friendly. It's a social media platform, not a discovery or search one.

Even the communities I care about have limited utility.

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