Apple rejects appeal from email app Hey • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple rejects appeal from email app Hey

#151

Post by ac29 » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 10:34 PM UTC

Despegar wrote: post #129

realtalk_sp wrote: post #120

Some people here seem to be responding to all of this inappropriately. The simple fact is that Apple is injecting itself as an intermediary in the payment process and extracting a preposterously oversized commission for no meaningful added value. And it's easy to see that Apple knows what they're doing is wrong. They strictly prohibit developers from signaling that there's an extra cost for purchases made through App…

>The simple fact is that Apple is injecting itself as an intermediary in the payment process and extracting a comically oversized commission for no meaningful added value. Frankly anyone who says this with a straight face is being absurd. Apple's commission isn't for "payment processing", promotion, any particular API, or service they provide on their platform. That they do all of those things makes it an attractive…

> They charge 30% because they've amassed 1 billion extremely valuable users who are willing to spend money on apps in their marketplace.

This is almost the textbook definition of extortion. "Hey, wouldn't it be a shame if you lost access to all these potential customers? You better give us 30% of your revenue."

Re: Apple rejects appeal from email app Hey

#152

Post by ProAm » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 10:35 PM UTC

epanchin wrote: post #23

ProAm wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fine, let me install software without going to the App store.

If one is able to install software without going into the App Store, then one is also liable to be socially engineered into installing software from outside the App Store. No thanks. Keep iPhones in their walled gardens where they are safe. Androids exist for experimentation.

> No thanks. Keep iPhones in their walled gardens where they are safe. Androids exist for experimentation.

That's fine too, don't strong arm me out of 30% while letting others get away with no paying that. Some people want a walled garden (you) and dont mind paying for it, others would like to install software of their choosing without letting Apple know what they install and by who.

Re: Apple rejects appeal from email app Hey

#153

Post by ac29 » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 10:36 PM UTC

josho wrote: post #102

antoncohen wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There might be other examples, but Basecamp doesn't fit. Most Basecamp users don't pay for Basecamp, a company does. It is like Jira, individual users don't pay for it. Basecamp also has a limited free plan, as does Jira Cloud. Hey is currently only for individuals, there is no free option, every user must pay. (I'm not defending Apple taking a cut of subscriptions. Just pointing out a difference.)

I think you nailed it. All the consumer subscription apps I could think of offer in app purchase. While the apps that target businesses do not. It seems Apple is enforcing their rules to selectively target consumer oriented apps. Which, from a consumer point of view I appreciate it. I like Apple subscriptions. However, for the businesses selling the 30% cut is hard to stomach.

> All the consumer subscription apps I could think of offer in app purchase.

Netflix doesn't.

Re: Apple rejects appeal from email app Hey

#154

Post by ProAm » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 10:36 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #80

ProAm wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fine, let me install software without going to the App store.

You've been able to do that for a while now. Without a paid developer account you can self-sign any app you want to run for 7 days. With a paid developer account you can install whatever private apps you want.

So I have to pay Apple more to write software and install it on my own device that Ive paid for and own fully?

Re: Apple rejects appeal from email app Hey

#155

Post by Hamuko » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 10:37 PM UTC

antoncohen wrote: post #34

ipsum2 wrote: post #4

What's infuriating is Apple's inconsistency. Some apps offer subscriptions outside of the app store and are still there (including Basecamp!)

There might be other examples, but Basecamp doesn't fit. Most Basecamp users don't pay for Basecamp, a company does. It is like Jira, individual users don't pay for it. Basecamp also has a limited free plan, as does Jira Cloud. Hey is currently only for individuals, there is no free option, every user must pay. (I'm not defending Apple taking a cut of subscriptions. Just pointing out a difference.)

I've yet to see where that distinction is codified in the rules.

Re: Apple rejects appeal from email app Hey

#156

Post by Despegar » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 10:37 PM UTC

realtalk_sp wrote: post #134

Despegar wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The simple fact is that Apple is injecting itself as an intermediary in the payment process and extracting a comically oversized commission for no meaningful added value. Frankly anyone who says this with a straight face is being absurd. Apple's commission isn't for "payment processing", promotion, any particular API, or service they provide on their platform. That they do all of those things makes it an attractive…

> They charge 30% because they've amassed 1 billion extremely valuable users who are willing to spend money on apps in their marketplace. Apps that are made up to 42% more expensive (NOTE: the 30% fee applies to all in-app purchases and the first year of subscriptions) in a way that's entirely opaque to those users. The fact that you think this is okay is the only thing I find absurd. You also seem like someone who i…

>You also seem like someone who is for some reason predisposed to be an apologist for Apple's monopolistic business practices. You certainly don't represent what would likely be the average/majority sentiment of Apple's customers, were they sufficiently informed.

I'm willing to defend Apple because I'm tired of disingenuous arguments from either parties with self-interest or FOSS advocates who have some ideological opposition to Apple's closed nature (and have since the beginning of the App Store and decades before that with Macs).

Apple's customers don't care about the margin structure or costs of app developers. The App Store has massively increased both the supply and demand for apps, and it has actually led to a decline in prices for software. Everyone knows this because they've been complaining about how they can't charge as much for apps as they did in the packaged software days.

Re: Apple rejects appeal from email app Hey

#157

Post by scarface74 » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 10:37 PM UTC

realtalk_sp wrote: post #120

Some people here seem to be responding to all of this inappropriately. The simple fact is that Apple is injecting itself as an intermediary in the payment process and extracting a preposterously oversized commission for no meaningful added value. And it's easy to see that Apple knows what they're doing is wrong. They strictly prohibit developers from signaling that there's an extra cost for purchases made through App…

The simple fact is that Apple is injecting itself as an intermediary in the payment process and extracting a preposterously oversized commission for no meaningful added value.

You mean like every retail store - digital and physical?

Re: Apple rejects appeal from email app Hey

#158

Post by scarface74 » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 10:39 PM UTC

nrmitchi wrote: post #139

_jal wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree. But you do realize you could also be describing the credit card market?

I think most people understand that the parent could be describing credit card markets, and I don't think that anyone is trying to make the case that credit card companies don't also take anti-competitive actions. But the typical credit card fee is ~3%, which is literally an order of magnitude less, and Visa/Mastercard/etc also don't prohibit their merchants from accepting other forms of payment.

What’s the typical markup between wholesale and retail? How much does every single digital store charge - including the console makers?

Re: Apple rejects appeal from email app Hey

#159

Post by Hamuko » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 10:39 PM UTC

justrudd wrote: post #62

scarface74 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can’t do anything with Netflix without paying.

But Netflix offers in app purchases.

You can't even make an account for Netflix inside the application.

Re: Apple rejects appeal from email app Hey

#160

Post by hypewatch » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 10:40 PM UTC

> Apple typically gets 30% of in-app subscriptions for the first year and 15% of renewals.

I think that 30% then 15% commission are both way too high. Apple should be able to charge a modest commission fee to be on their App Store but that price is way too high. Maybe 5% then 3% would be more reasonable.

But the worst part about this is that Apple is so inconsistent with its enforcement. There is an anti-competitive element to Apple’s enforcement behavior that is very concerning. I’m surprised that Tim Cook has allowed this behavior. Long term this will hurt app developers and Tim should understand that.