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Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

blog.zoom.us

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Re: Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

#491
post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.adamsmith.org/blog/stop-saying-virtue-signalling

100% agreed. It's almost exclusively used as an ad hominem by people who lack that particular virtue to dismiss people who espouse a caring viewpoint. If you want to argue that your target does less to further that particular cause than you do, fine. If you want to argue the cause is misguided, fine. But using the term is just lazy.

I disagree. Metaphorically speaking, online discussion is full of literal butt-heads and having the term butt-head is valuable to have in the toolbox even if some people call everyone they don't agree with a butt-head because it's easy and they're lazy. I don't really care if we call them butt-heads or ass-hats as long as there's a more or less agreed upon word for it.

Virtue signaling or whatever you want to call that sort of in-group circle jerk is fundamentally unproductive and self-rewarding because it's just a reiteration of existing group beliefs that basically everyone already knows and has. There's no term you can use to describe that behavior that will not make people uncomfortable when you call it out because at the end of the day you're calling the behavior unproductive and selfish.

For example, someone goes on Reddit and asks "should I put economy tire A or economy tire B on my 20yo, $2k car, also I have $250 to spend". The most popular answers will be invariably be "you should have dedicated summer and winter tires" and "you should use jack stands when you change tires" and many duplicates thereof many of which will suggest that anyone who does not do these things is not someone of good character, deserves to rot in hell, is a burden upon society, etc, etc. Neither of these sideshows are productive discussion. Both of them serve purely to signal to the in-group that the signaler believes something the in-group already believes. Of course everybody wants the greatest tires and nobody wants a car on them but the former is not in the scope for budgetary reasons and the latter is not a concern when simply changing tires never-mind that installing tires usually adds no cost over having them put on rims. The people circle jerking it to jack stands and fancy tires are negatively affecting the discussion for anyone who cared about economy tires. Virtue signaling takes legitimate relevant content and displaces it with low quality junk. I'm more technical than I am cultured but I see this kind of behavior across multiple topics and I'm sure that any serious amateur film critic, book critic, etc. probably could come up with a similar example from their niche.

While that example is hypothetical you can see similar ones play out across a multitude of topics and I think this does legitimate damage to civil discourse. It's like how searching for a service manual for an appliance on the internet to yield results but now it yields a million sites that don't have what you're looking for but will try and sell you something. I see virtue signaling as having a similar quality degradation affect but on legitimate discussion. We can no-longer have detailed discussions about complex issues, regardless of subject because they all get derailed, bogged down and diluted by people showing up to signal their virtue on a higher level issue. Take for example the recent discussion about police. Many on the left and right have a litany of small points on which they agree. Any public discussion about common ground, like fewer MRAPs in the hands of suburban police departments, gets drowned out by riff raff showing up to tell the world which team they're on. At scale this is damaging to civil discourse.

In conclusion, I think that having a nice, short, two-word, pop culture word to describe that behavior is useful because makes it easier for those who may not be articulate enough to otherwise do a good job call it out when they see it. Of course some people are gonna abuse it but I think that's just the nature of it being a negative thing since all negative things become a name you can call someone or their actions.

Re: Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

#492
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not like no one ever came up with video chatting before and they are the only ones around so the moat is moot. The only reasons they exist in any meaningful way starts the "just works" thing and ends with the "vhs v.s betamax" thing. For the business model, it is the same as other OS, there are companies that want a tech insurance policy.

No other company right now can get the reliability and “just works” like Zoom. If they open source everything, why wouldn’t all the competitors including the biggest companies in the world not start seeing how Zoom is doing things. We already see open source “borrowed” frequently. Amazon’s AWS being a regular.

> No other company right now can get the reliability and “just works” like Zoom.

I disagree. Plenty of video chat software has comparable reliability and "just works"-ity.

Google Meet, Skype, Microsoft Teams, Discord...

Hell, Apple has had "just works" and "reliability" in their walled garden since FaceTime was introduced -- if you're willing to look only in their walled garden.

Re: Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

#493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s like “PC” or “fake news”, it was originally meaningful but got co-opted by people who use it in bad faith.

Just curious: Fake news was coined by Trump, so you're agreeing it was a meaningful usage?

No, and it's total bullshit that we let him get away with re-claiming it. Originally, it was for stories that were ludicrously false and made up. It's like the stuff you see in tabloids. It was being passed around on social media as real news. Things like Obama being a secret Muslim, and not a natural born US citizen. You know the things that launched Trump's campaign.

Re: Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

#494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I gave Jitsi a spin last week and was surprised at how easy it is to use. If you have a browser you sont even need to install anything if you’re not on mobile.

Jitsi is the way to go as far as I know. It passed the grandma test. https://meet.jit.si/

Doesn't pass my browser test. Empty gray page.

Re: Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

#495

I find this story arch with Zoom amusing: 1. Pre-COVID Zoom claims it has E2E encryption for everyone. 2. During COVID Zoom grows in popularity, which prompts journalists to learn that the claims that Zoom has E2E encryption are inaccurate. 3. Zoom admits that it never had true E2E encryption, but announces they will develop it and it will only be available for paying customers. 4. Zoom gets another wave of criticism…

In "enterprise" software, E2E hasn't meant what it means in modern chat programs. In my world, it just meant encrypted over the wire and at rest, nothing more. We aren't there technologically to have many zero knowledge SaaS products. I don't know they aren't liars, but that difference might be a reason.

Re: Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

#497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ring Central uses Zoom for the backend. I know they just announced their own "Ring central video" But im weary of that for the time being.

*wary

ah, my bad. I just googled and educated myself on the difference.

Re: Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

#498
post #481
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how this isn't just discriminating based on national origin. It'd be one thing if there are actually some nefarious ties between Eric and CCP, but all we are going by is he's originally from China and there could be influence by CCP on people from China. It's not bad to point out a connection, it's bad to point out a possible connection based on nothing more than where the guy is from.

There is plenty of evidence suggesting that Zoom collaborates with the CCP without it, there was undue pressure to terminate activists without users from China. It is best to focus on these sorts of links rather than someone merely being from China.

That I'm fine with. If there is evidence that suggest Zoom is doing something unsavory then we should call them out on it. But suggesting Zoom isn't trustworthy simply because the CEO is Chinese is distasteful.

Re: Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

#499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ring Central uses Zoom for the backend. I know they just announced their own "Ring central video" But im weary of that for the time being.

You say backend, but the frontend also has tons of overlap. The first time I saw RingCentral was after much Zoom experience, and I was thoroughly confused (based on nothing but the frontend) by the similarity until reading up about it. As a one-time invitee rather than a frequent user, RC was absurdly identical to Zoom other than the title bar and icon.

Ring central has used zoom on the backend for a while even before zoom went public. But just recently they added a powered by zoom watermark. And yes the applications do look very similar but RC meetings hasn't changed the UI in the 3+ years i've been using it.

Re: Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

#500
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm actually more alarmed than I was before the announcement, because it indicates that there wasn't sufficient pressure for them not to do this. Watch them put the key in a predictable memory location, then have a subtle vulnerability elsewhere that lets them exfiltrate the client-generated key at any time. Anyone with views that might be dangerous to reveal to state actors should be very, very wary.

Anybody that trusts zoom with anything even slightly sensitive these days is completely nuts. Yes, we know its easy to use.

I would very much like not to use it but I am forced by my employer, including to divulge sensitive info like my passport.

Yes, you have read that right. I was forced to make a zoom call and hold my passport open to the camera. No, they wouldn't accept a scan and an email, or even a call through Jitsi. This is a major public institution with a 200+ strong IT department consuming millions of pounds a year. This is the moronic "enterprise" stuff those millions of pounds buy.

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