For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business • Hacker News Board

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#751

Post by sidlls » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 1:19 AM UTC

eyelidlessness wrote: post #456

chongli wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the trouble here is the double meaning of the word racist. When some people hear the word, they think of cross-burning fanatics and mass murderers. On the other hand, the current big conversation is about how everyone is racist and that society is rife with systemic racism. That creates a catch-22 for anyone who commits a faux-pas (like mistaking the black CEO for a subordinate). Either admit to racism and ca…

Somehow you proposed a "double meaning" of racism and missed the actual meaning that's being addressed by our society. Racism isn't about personal prejudice, although it's certainly a participation trophy for them. Racism is not about who is burning crosses, or about who is born into privilege. Racism is a system , a set of rules, rites, privileges and laws that puts 100% of POC at a disadvantage, and 100% of white p…

What you write is generally true. You're taking it to an unjustified extreme, though, and glossing over the fact that the advantages diminish rapidly as one descends the socioeconomic ladder, to the point where the "white advantage" for impoverished folks looks more like regular fluctuations in the noise than it does a clear above-the-noise signal. That is to say: the poorest whites might on average have some advantage over their peers in some contexts, but as a matter of practice day-to-day living isn't that different.

I know there is a lot of well-deserved focus on the ways our racist systems do more damage to blacks. That doesn't mean we should exaggerate, simply because the ground truth is horrific enough.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#752

Post by da39a3ee » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 2:00 AM UTC

watwut wrote: post #581

peteretep wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe these painful interactions would be much less common if tech culture were more diverse in the first place. I have this bias that people who get into programming as kids tend to end up as the strongest developers. My own personal effort to try and help tech diversify is support and promotion of https://www.blackgirlscode.com/ When I've worked in London I've been often surprised at how diverse QA teams are,…

> I have this bias that people who get into programming as kids tend to end up as the strongest developers. I don't think this is true. I think that this bias is pushing away a lot of people who could be those strong developers, but think it is already too late for them.

I just want to point something out -- it's not clear that you're making the mistake I'm referring to, but it's a common bone of contention.

Your second sentence is an "ought sentence". It's about how we would like the world to be (a world where everyone who has the potential to be strong at something doesn't get discouraged)

Your first sentence is an "is sentence". It's a statement about how you think the world is.

Putting the second sentence after the first makes some people think that you're confused about the relationship between "is" and "ought". This is a criticism often levelled at the more daffy left-wing/liberal/progressive extremes -- that they refuse to confront the distinction between how the world is and how we would like it to be.

People who want liberal/left political thought to be rescued from dumb 21st century "progressives" find this sort of thing upsetting when it comes from someone who, as in your case, obviously is expressing a worthy sentiment.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#753

Post by eyelidlessness » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 3:22 AM UTC

sidlls wrote: post #751

eyelidlessness wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow you proposed a "double meaning" of racism and missed the actual meaning that's being addressed by our society. Racism isn't about personal prejudice, although it's certainly a participation trophy for them. Racism is not about who is burning crosses, or about who is born into privilege. Racism is a system , a set of rules, rites, privileges and laws that puts 100% of POC at a disadvantage, and 100% of white p…

What you write is generally true. You're taking it to an unjustified extreme, though, and glossing over the fact that the advantages diminish rapidly as one descends the socioeconomic ladder, to the point where the "white advantage" for impoverished folks looks more like regular fluctuations in the noise than it does a clear above-the-noise signal. That is to say: the poorest whites might on average have some advanta…

Hi. My extremely poor white brother in Appalachia told me today about his most recent encounter with a cop. The scenario was disturbingly similar to scenarios where traffic stops have ended with black people dead. My brother got cut slack, allowed to leave with his car out of compliance with state law. Advised by the cop to take back roads to avoid further scrutiny.

YOU might not see white privilege, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. If my brother had been black, in his words... “I HOPE I would have been treated the same way”. But he knew that’s a false hope. If my brother had been black, would he be just one more statistic to debate here?

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#754

Post by eyelidlessness » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 3:27 AM UTC

sidlls wrote: post #751

eyelidlessness wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow you proposed a "double meaning" of racism and missed the actual meaning that's being addressed by our society. Racism isn't about personal prejudice, although it's certainly a participation trophy for them. Racism is not about who is burning crosses, or about who is born into privilege. Racism is a system , a set of rules, rites, privileges and laws that puts 100% of POC at a disadvantage, and 100% of white p…

What you write is generally true. You're taking it to an unjustified extreme, though, and glossing over the fact that the advantages diminish rapidly as one descends the socioeconomic ladder, to the point where the "white advantage" for impoverished folks looks more like regular fluctuations in the noise than it does a clear above-the-noise signal. That is to say: the poorest whites might on average have some advanta…

By the way “blacks” is a dead giveaway you’re either very ignorant or not sincere. Just by the way.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#755

Post by sidlls » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 3:46 AM UTC

eyelidlessness wrote: post #753

sidlls wrote: post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you write is generally true. You're taking it to an unjustified extreme, though, and glossing over the fact that the advantages diminish rapidly as one descends the socioeconomic ladder, to the point where the "white advantage" for impoverished folks looks more like regular fluctuations in the noise than it does a clear above-the-noise signal. That is to say: the poorest whites might on average have some advanta…

Hi. My extremely poor white brother in Appalachia told me today about his most recent encounter with a cop. The scenario was disturbingly similar to scenarios where traffic stops have ended with black people dead. My brother got cut slack, allowed to leave with his car out of compliance with state law. Advised by the cop to take back roads to avoid further scrutiny. YOU might not see white privilege, but that doesn’t…

Your brother's anecdote doesn't erase my lived experience, okay? You have an extremely poor white brother; I grew up an extremely poor white guy in a mixed-race neighborhood. I know, better than most, what privilege being white buys me in this society. It exists. But existence is far from universal, or uniform.

You're off the mark. Way off.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#756

Post by triceratops » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 4:19 AM UTC

atom-morgan wrote: post #610

triceratops wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Did you realize that Abraham Lincoln was a racist? I think signing the Emancipation Proclamation, prosecuting the Civil War, and ultimately paying for it all with his life, give him a pass for his personal views that would be considered "racist" by today's standards. In Lincoln's case, actions really spoke far louder than words.

Wasn't one of his primary motives to cripple the Confederacy by signing the Emancipation Proclamation? In other words, he didn't simply do it because it was the right thing to do.

Any move to cripple the Confederacy would be good right? Considering their aims?

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#757

Post by eyelidlessness » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 5:00 AM UTC

sidlls wrote: post #755

eyelidlessness wrote: post #753

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi. My extremely poor white brother in Appalachia told me today about his most recent encounter with a cop. The scenario was disturbingly similar to scenarios where traffic stops have ended with black people dead. My brother got cut slack, allowed to leave with his car out of compliance with state law. Advised by the cop to take back roads to avoid further scrutiny. YOU might not see white privilege, but that doesn’t…

Your brother's anecdote doesn't erase my lived experience, okay? You have an extremely poor white brother; I grew up an extremely poor white guy in a mixed-race neighborhood. I know, better than most, what privilege being white buys me in this society. It exists. But existence is far from universal, or uniform. You're off the mark. Way off.

My brother and I grew up in a world that sounds similar to yours. I’m not negating your experience. The fact that you and I have privilege doesn’t negate our own hardships.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#758

Post by bestnameever » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 5:19 AM UTC

buran77 wrote: post #625

bestnameever wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you are a minority in a group, I think you tend to overthink things, feel very judged, and may be put in to an uncomfortable position to speak for your community. why do you feel judged?

Because people tend to generalize and if you represent 50% of the experience they have with that minority it's very easy to label everything, especially negative aspects, as generally applicable to "all of them". So you bear the burden of representing your whole minority to the best of your ability. Members of the majority rarely need to do this or even be aware of this.

So the feeling of being judged may be an internal feeling that does not match reality.

I'm not sure what the answer is to that but I say just be you. You are where you are, hopefully, because of the person you have become and that is something that you should be proud of and be able to act on.

You can also look at it as that you have already been judged in a positive light in order to be in the place that you are.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#759

Post by titzer » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 5:49 AM UTC

sfj wrote: post #748

titzer wrote: post #745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well to honest your post was the textbook definition of victim blaming. It was hardly a "premise." With absolutely zero evidence you flat out accused them of wrong behavior (dressing wrong, acting wrong) instead of considering their situation on the facts they presented. That is victim blaming. But now you try turn the tables around. Your feelings are so important. Painting yourself as the victim is the all-too-predi…

> Well to honest your post was the textbook definition of victim blaming. It was hardly a "premise." With absolutely zero evidence you flat out accused them of wrong behavior (dressing wrong, acting wrong) instead of considering their situation on the facts they presented. That is victim blaming. I didn't accuse, I simply asked a question. How are you so sure that it must be racism? Why are you trying to shame me for…

> I didn't accuse, I simply asked a question.

Yeah, in exactly the kind of snooty passive-aggressive way that climate-deniers are just "asking questions". I didn't want to come out all hot at you and gently encouraged you to consider having more empathy, but here we are, down a spiral of your increasing defensiveness and hostility. This is now totally about how you feel slighted for being challenged on your victim-blaming.

> Empathy is not the same as agreeing with him

It's clear that you don't agree with this person and already have pre-formed judgments, and that constantly surfaces as outright incredulity. It's difficult for you to process how infuriating that is for minorities who do experience racism to have to fight their way through a lack of shared experience and a wall of denial masquerading as "asking questions". Asking questions isn't "listening", it's just pushback. Racism is real. Listen to people to experience it.

> I'm just trying to get people to stop jumping to conclusions

Please, could you just let people who are close to the situation talk instead of putting yourself in there and muddying the waters?

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#760

Post by armonraphiel » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 5:54 AM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #161

DevX101 wrote: post #148

Some of the most successful blacks in tech had to 'hide' their blackness to achieve success. Robert Smith, the wealthiest black man in America, specifically didn't put up a photo on his investment firm's site to avoid any possibility of bias (now that he's a multi-billionaire who's "made it", this is no longer a concern). Calendly, who's CEO is black, and is one of the top performing black led tech startups curiously…

> You're assumed to be mediocre (or worse) until you can prove yourself exceptional. And to make this personal, feeling like you have to be the best in every group in order to be respected enough that you can't be ignored leads to overwork and burnout.

Growing up, my grandmother would often tell me I needed to be "twice as good as the next best white person" to be taken seriously. I resented the premise behind that statement but she was not wrong.

It's a feeling that doesn't go away & often compounds on imposter syndrome.