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Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

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Re: Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

#311
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not racist to suggest that the Chinese government influences companies. It is racist to suggest that Chinese people are automatically predispositioned to certain actions.

Fair enough and I don't think anyone here will find that statement controversial. I think what bothers me in some of the dialogue here is what I perceive as an attempt to play "hide the ball" by pretending that CCP interests don't run counter to the interests of liberal democracies by labeling raised concerns as racist. No one framed anything in racial terms to begin with so I don't see why it needs to be placed in t…

Did you read the comment he's replying to? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23553503

It's entire contents is an argument that Zoom is evil because Eric Yuan is Chinese-American. It doesn't say a single one of the things you're saying.

Re: Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

#312
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, I have to post this comment again, from just 3 days ago [1]. Also remember that Eric Yuan is an American citizen, not a Chinese citizen. He switched. Original comment: When will this meme die? Zoom is NOT a Chinese company. It is incorporated in and headquartered in the US. Like any American company ever, it follows US laws in the US, and local laws in other companies where it operates. End of story. Y…

Defending something as "NOT a Chinese company" or not a Chinese citizen (as if those would allow certain assumptions about the actions of individuals) is still xenophobic framing. People are people and are capable of independent thought and actions. We can be upset at power structures and at their effects. Taking that further to make assumptions about groups of people is racist.

"Chinese" are not a race, and assuming that groups of people are somewhat more likely to be subject to some power structure, is not racism or xenophobia.

You'll get a Liu Xiaobo once in a while, but much more often you'll have people that, while easily wonderful as people per se, are disgracefully forced, or have been convinced to, do some things that they shouldn't do.

Re: Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

#313
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's encrypted all the way from one end to the other end, we just also happen to have a copy of the key and can dencrypt it in the middle. Technically, the exact packets of the data you send is E2E encrypted... but the copies they make for themselves aren't.

Is that consistent with the traditional definition of E2E? And if so then what's the term for encryption that a middle man cannot decrypt?

> What's the term for encryption that a middle man cannot decrypt?

I don't know if there's a term, but short of exchanging public keys in person there will always be a theoretical attack vector because there's always some[one|thing] in between you and your recipient.

Re: Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CCP can and will exert pressure on family members to get expats and former citizens to do what they want. They're not the only country to do so, not by a long shot, but they are particularly brazen about it. Though I think the CEO is less relevant than the critical amount of developers Zoom relies on that are directly living under and subject to CCP malfeasance.

> The CCP can and will exert pressure on family members to get expats and former citizens to do what they want. Could you give a few such cases?

Here's a bunch.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/01/31/china-families-interpol-...

Re: Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't Zoom block a US based activist on the request of the Chinese government? I'm not arguing that there is complete subservience to the CCP but this censorship seems like a line was crossed. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/11/technology/zoom-china-tia... Edit: Let me also state that I'm not entirely sure what OP's argument was, considering the comment was deleted. I'm merely stating that there seems to be some coo…

I'm aware of Zoom's track record, and it could certainly be scrutinized, criticized, or even boycotted. What we have here is going from "CEO was born and raised in China" to "No wonder why they have to play party with CCP" and "inevitable ties and implicit subservience to the CCP". I can't see the logical connection in the absence of other information. Don't you see a problem with assuming someone's motives purely fr…

Is it licit to at least keep it into account?

Or we need Xi Jinping's permission?

Re: Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

#317
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm disgusted that in 2020, Americans continue to use the same racist, unfounded smears againts people based on their ethnicity just as they did when they were throwing Japanese-Americans into internment camps.

There are plenty of HN users who won't (or wouldn't, in an ideal world) use any US-based software because of NSA interference. The issue is national origin, not ethnicity. Japanese Americans were thrown into camps for the same reason, but we're not talking about jailing anyone here. We're talking about avoiding a specific product. Another difference is that Japanese Americans were put into camps regardless of how man…

Did we read the same comment? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23553503

It explicitly argues that he's evil because he has a Chinese name and Wikipedia describes him as Chinese-American. There's no equivocating about the software being China-based, or him having close family in China for the CCP to threaten.

And discriminating against people for national origin is considered so bigoted it was explicitly included in the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Your reasoning is sound, but you should seriously reconsider your basic ethical principles.

Re: Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

#319
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm disgusted that in 2020, Americans continue to use the same racist, unfounded smears againts people based on their ethnicity just as they did when they were throwing Japanese-Americans into internment camps.

There are plenty of HN users who won't (or wouldn't, in an ideal world) use any US-based software because of NSA interference. The issue is national origin, not ethnicity. Japanese Americans were thrown into camps for the same reason, but we're not talking about jailing anyone here. We're talking about avoiding a specific product. Another difference is that Japanese Americans were put into camps regardless of how man…

> Japanese Americans were thrown into camps for the same reason, but we're not talking about jailing anyone here.

Yet.

At the risk of a slippery slope fallacy, institutional xenophobia ain't controlled by an on/off switch. Dehumanization is a gradual process, and establishing an attitude that people associated with an enemy are aligned with that enemy is part of that process. At first those associations might seem reasonable, going for officials and other important figures, and then perhaps their family, and so might the actions against them, like added scrutiny and surveillance of their communications and travels. The problem is that both ends of that are prone to scope creep - the target set broadens ever so slowly (citizens, ex-citizens, descendants of (ex-)citizens, their descendants, and so on, almost always excused with "well we need to be sure that $CURRENT_TARGET is not part of $PREVIOUS_TARGET"), while the actions worsen ever so slowly (surveillance, profiling, travel restrictions, property confiscation, imprisonment, sterilization, execution) as the rhetoric heats up from "we just want to make sure these people aren't the enemy" to "these people are the enemy and shall be treated as such".

Personally, I'd prefer to nip that in the bud rather than watch 1800's-era sinophobia reenact itself at the expense of my Chinese-American friends and colleagues. I also have enough self-awareness to know that if I would be upset by people writing me off as "will probably help oppress minorities and political dissidents if his government tells him to do so" simply because I happen to be a citizen of a country with a track record for oppressing minorities and political dissidents, then I should refrain from doing so to a citizen (let alone ex-citizen) of a different country with those same tendencies, even if those tendencies are, in my opinion, much stronger.

Re: Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

#320
post #105

Aside from whatever the Zoom news story of the day is, it's completely unsurprising that they're eating WebEx's lunch. I just tried scheduling a meeting and it was outrageously bad. The bright green "Start" and "Schedule Meeting" buttons just pop up an error. The correct button to progress is the dark grey (as if disabled) "Next" button. It prompts me to create a "personal conference number", whatever that is. This e…

I think Cisco bought webex largely because Cisco's big expensive conferencing hardware / software were under threat and they wanted in on what would replace it. Cisco itself has time and again bought its way into things that aren't their core competency and they fumble around with them. They bought Flip video for 590 million years ago, despite the fact that every person in Cisco's office had a smart phone in their po…

Since Zoom's first 41 employees were from Webex, somebody should compare the streams and files and see if there are similar markers.
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