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Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

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Re: Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

#131
post #57

with closed source, hosted software E2EE is as much about trust as it is about technology since you can't verify its implementation. arguably, if trust is there, E2EE doesn't get you much anyway other than for scenarios where the company itself is breached. in any case, if the trust isn't there, you can't validate the E2EE, so your risk profile with regards to using the software doesn't change much.

You can verify closed source E2EE as long as you can inspect the traffic going client-server. The problem is that most E2EE apps allow auto-updating, so baking in something that transmits info to a third party is easy (but detectable with enough eyes on the code).

If the closed source E2EE app is sending encrypted messages but leaking bits of the key in how those messages are padded, for example, how would you detect that?

As for the threat model of open source E2EE apps auto-updating to an insecure version, you're right that this needs some extra defences. One way would be to use a binary-transparency log[0] to make sure that the open source project had publicly committed to a specific binary at least 24 hours in advance of pushing the auto-update.

This system relies on there being auditors out there who would raise the alarm if a malicious update was released, or a hash was included in the log for which there was no corresponding (reproducibly buildable) source code.

[0] https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Binary_Transparency

Re: Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

#133
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wouldn't surprise me as recently the app tried to get me to trust an untrusted cert.

It's encrypted all the way from one end to the other end, we just also happen to have a copy of the key and can dencrypt it in the middle. Technically, the exact packets of the data you send is E2E encrypted... but the copies they make for themselves aren't.

Is that consistent with the traditional definition of E2E?

And if so then what's the term for encryption that a middle man cannot decrypt?

Re: Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think their concern is paedophile rings using large group E2EE for live child abuse with completely anonymous accounts.

Yeah - I'm pretty sure this is the real concern and verifying a phone number is reasonable trade-off. I know this argument is often quickly dismissed on HN since people see child abuse or 'going dark' as an easy excuse for the government to leverage to get more control (and it has been used for this), but that doesn't mean the problem isn't serious or doesn't exist. See this: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/…

> The people carrying out the abuse are sophisticated.

In this case wouldn't they build their own solutions (potentially based on existing open-source solutions like Asterisk + Linphone or Jitsi Meet) or they might've built them already?

Phone numbers are also very easy to obtain anonymously, so I am not sure SMS verification would help track down abusers when it'll lead to a prepaid SIM or some innocent user's phone that happened to be compromised by malware.

Re: Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think their concern is paedophile rings using large group E2EE for live child abuse with completely anonymous accounts.

Yeah - I'm pretty sure this is the real concern and verifying a phone number is reasonable trade-off. I know this argument is often quickly dismissed on HN since people see child abuse or 'going dark' as an easy excuse for the government to leverage to get more control (and it has been used for this), but that doesn't mean the problem isn't serious or doesn't exist. See this: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/…

People would give more support to government efforts to fight child abuse videos, if the government stopped using child abuse control tech to violently suppress human rights.

Re: Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zoom is evil. Also, fun note - just noticed Eric Yuan posted that and also created Zoom. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Yuan Eric S. Yuan (Chinese: 袁征; pinyin: Yuán Zhēng; born 1970) is a Chinese-American billionaire businessman, and the CEO and founder of Zoom Video Communications, of which he owns 22%. No wonder why they have to play party with CCP.

Unfortunately, I have to post this comment again, from just 3 days ago [1]. Also remember that Eric Yuan is an American citizen, not a Chinese citizen. He switched. Original comment: When will this meme die? Zoom is NOT a Chinese company. It is incorporated in and headquartered in the US. Like any American company ever, it follows US laws in the US, and local laws in other companies where it operates. End of story. Y…

[deleted]

Re: Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

#137

I find this story arch with Zoom amusing: 1. Pre-COVID Zoom claims it has E2E encryption for everyone. 2. During COVID Zoom grows in popularity, which prompts journalists to learn that the claims that Zoom has E2E encryption are inaccurate. 3. Zoom admits that it never had true E2E encryption, but announces they will develop it and it will only be available for paying customers. 4. Zoom gets another wave of criticism…

E2E encryption is meaningless unless there is a way to prove that it is E2E, e.g. by showing us the source code of the client side and allowing us to compile it ourselves, which Signal does.

It would be super interesting if there was a way to abstract out encryption on the camera itself, where the video call software gets an encrypted video stream and its only job is to convey that stream to the other side, which decrypts it.

The hard part is sending an encrypted stream that can be programatically degraded based on available bandwidth, and still be cryptographically secure.

Re: Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

#138
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? And which part of "local law" required Zoom to close accounts of US citizens in the US who weren't breaking any US Laws? https://news.sky.com/story/zoom-disables-accounts-of-chinese... >The suspension targeted Humanitarian China, an organisation based in the US, after it held a call with roughly 250 people, including a number who dialled in from China.

Same reason why Google censored itself for China in 2006. Did people think Google was a 'Chinese company'? Note that this was before Google set up a presence in China. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4645596.stm

I guess I don't consider that the same thing at all. They're censoring searches coming from china to google.cn (hosted in China). They didn't really have a choice, the servers are in China, the users are in China.

What they aren't doing is actively blocking users from China getting to www.google.com, and they aren't censoring searches Chinese users do on www.google.com because those resources aren't hosted in China and aren't subject to Chinese law.

Zoom on the other hand IS blocking users from China accessing resources in the US and while they may have "undone" the ban, they banned US users from their platform for breaking a Chinese law that they aren't subject to. Namely talking about the Tienanmen Square massacre.

Re: Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

#139

I find this story arch with Zoom amusing: 1. Pre-COVID Zoom claims it has E2E encryption for everyone. 2. During COVID Zoom grows in popularity, which prompts journalists to learn that the claims that Zoom has E2E encryption are inaccurate. 3. Zoom admits that it never had true E2E encryption, but announces they will develop it and it will only be available for paying customers. 4. Zoom gets another wave of criticism…

It's confusing too because implementing E2E crypto seems far easier than the above events. Any ideas why they might be so resistant to it?

Re: Zoom to bring end-to-end encryption to all users, including non-paying

#140

Personally, I'm not feeling comfortable using Zoom on my PC. Just the other day, when opening the app, I was given a warning that the security certificate was untrusted and I would need to trust the certificate to proceed. I tried updating the app and the same error occurred. Perhaps their cert had expired or it was some oversight but I'm done. I've removed Zoom.

You can join most meeting from your browser. They employ multiple dark patterns to discourage this. Once you click the link it pops up a page that says it is launching the app. After a couple of seconds they give you another link to try again. If you click that it then shows a tiny link to view from your browser. Then you need to solve a captcha but then you are in and everything works well.

I'm fearful that I'm being paranoid but if they want to use their native app that badly I'm pretty sure it is collecting some information that I don't want to share. I'll happily take the extra steps to keep them sandboxed in my browser.

Honestly this is one of my favourite features of Google Meet and Jisti Meet. It is so easy to send a link to anyone and they are in the meeting in seconds.

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