For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business • Hacker News Board

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#621

Post by pbhjpbhj » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 12:00 PM UTC

somethoughts wrote: post #207

itronitron wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there are people that are racist. They are easy to spot because they make no apology about that. There is also systemic, or institutionalized, racism and the current state of law enforcement in the US is a prime example of that. What is interesting is how the systemic racism bleeds into everyone else's minds to form or reinforce their biases. If we can eliminate systemic/institutionalized racism then I would ex…

Yes definitely there is a group of people who are outright racist in the typically defined sense. And the group which can self-identify as racist is probably very small (unfortunately). The group which can self-identify as biased is probably much larger (fortunately?). The challenge is that by naming/labeling the big discussion systemic racism, its possible for a much larger (and perhaps more influential) group of pe…

>a group of people who are outright racist //

That group is perhaps ironically the most racial diverse group one could conceive.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#622

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 12:01 PM UTC

thu2111 wrote: post #536

GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm skeptical of any American "Libertarian" especially when it comes to race. Sowell is a class-reductionist, which would make him a terrible pick for this topic.

So it's not really about race, then, but about politics all along? I think you'd agree with Sowell a lot more than you imagine in that case! Sowell has the advantage of being black, which makes his view closer to home than the vast majority of anti-racism activists, who seem to frequently be white people telling other white people what black people find offensive (see: comments on the GitHub master/main discussions).…

[deleted]

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#623

Post by evrydayhustling » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 12:03 PM UTC

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #494

dgb23 wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You wouldn't believe how lonely it is. In my team of 150 people, we were two black people. This is a huge part of the problem isn't it? I believe these painful interactions would be much less common if tech culture were more diverse in the first place. Women share a similar fate. Whenever I hear some of these stories I cringe. Some of them are surprising/shocking even. But this seems important. Hearing those storie…

> This is a huge part of the problem isn't it? I think this is the problem. Say a black guy with gold teeth, tons of tattoos and colorful dreadlocks and a middle aged white guy walk in. One of them is a rapper. Who is it? Based on experience, most people will certainly assume the black guy is. What if it turns out it’s the white guy? Are they unconsciously racist against white people or are they just following experi…

> Are they unconsciously racist or are they just following experience-based heuristics?

Both! Today's discussion about racism isn't (mainly) about critiquing the motivations in peoples' deepest heart. It's about acknowledging that the outcomes of this kind of assumption can be racist, regardless of whether any harm was intended.

The person who is assumed to be subordinate, or less educated, or more prone to criminality will be given fewer opportunities. Society will systematically fail to recognize and utilize their talents, and can ultimately do them great harm through neglect - even if the individuals involved were "just following experience-based heuristics".

Acknowledging your potential to participate in racism doesn't mean admitting you have a cartoonish hatred. It means recognizing that it requires a proactive effort to keep assumptions from becoming self perpetuating in harmful ways.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#624

Post by wwright » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 12:06 PM UTC

gerland wrote: post #615

[flagged]

So you are saying that although black people are around 1/8 of the US population, we should hire only around 2% black people, because otherwise we would be wasting more intelligent people on manual labor?

You realize the implicit argument there, right?

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#625

Post by buran77 » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 12:13 PM UTC

bestnameever wrote: post #564

lappet wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, I feel you, I have worked in the valley for 10 years and am yet to work closely with a black developer. I have felt the loneliness at times - I seem to oscillate between all white teams and teams with many Asians (I am Indian). When you are a minority in a group, I think you tend to overthink things, feel very judged, and may be put in to an uncomfortable position to speak for your community. It can be weird and…

> When you are a minority in a group, I think you tend to overthink things, feel very judged, and may be put in to an uncomfortable position to speak for your community. why do you feel judged?

Because people tend to generalize and if you represent 50% of the experience they have with that minority it's very easy to label everything, especially negative aspects, as generally applicable to "all of them". So you bear the burden of representing your whole minority to the best of your ability. Members of the majority rarely need to do this or even be aware of this.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#626

Post by pawelk » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 12:15 PM UTC

christophilus wrote: post #595

nicolas_t wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotal but I've lived in different Asian countries for the last 15 years and my experience is that expats who live in compounds geared toward their nationality, never eat local food and never bothered to learn the local language tend to also be very racist. You'll hear them non-stop complaining about the locals or making sarcastic comments about them, about them having no manners, not speaking English properly (ir…

Why were they living there, if they despised those cultures? (Genuine question, not rhetorical.)

There are many possible reasons. For example lower cost of living, retiring in a place that has both lower costs and perfect weather or moving for business reasons only etc etc.

It happens even on a very micro scale when people move from cities to villages or the other way around. I quit a city life and moved to a village (~1200 inhabitants) but I also changed as many habits as I could to enjoy this life style. I met a lot of people early on and got to know them, developed some friendships, helped out and got some help. They are (edit: I would dare to say: we are, I feel part f the community now) very open, honest and inviting if you are as well. However there are people who move purely because property is way cheaper, but they want to maintain their city lifestyle and then try to contest the aspects of rural living that interfere with their idyllic vision of peaceful and silent sanctuary away from all civilization. There are noises and smells, tractors and cattle. Infrastructure is not up to par. Shops close early. And, worst of all, some treat the locals as uneducated dirty mass that is below their middle-class level. They tend to isolate and only seek company of other "expats". And in consequence are treated as suspicious, or even unwanted, element by the locals. It builds tensions and happens on the scale of ~50km between a village and the nearest city. On international or intercontinental scale it is probably amplified by orders of magnitude.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#627

Post by pbhjpbhj » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 12:15 PM UTC

x86_64Ubuntu wrote: post #392

twybriny wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the things that confuses me quite a bit is the focus on laws that expired or have been abrogated 50-60-70-150 years ago and make it as if everything wrong with contemporary American society is caused directly by such laws and nothing else. * GI Bill: adopted in 1944, expired in 1956. * Social Security: adopted in 1935, unclear what the impacts were at the time. Unclear what the impacts are today. * Redlining:…

You make it sound like when those programs and patterns were ended, that the black community recovered overnight. Your post also acts as if the driving ideas of racism that lead to blacks being excluded from or vulnerable to the things you listed ended overnight also. And your post mentions how racism made the social landscape far more adversarial to blacks with things such as the War On Drugs used to target the blac…

I don't think you're being fair nsporillo (the GP commenter) asked what societal structures were [currently] a specific hindrance based on race. Noting that it appeared that the entire legal structure of society was the target.

In response someone posted about a load of laws, which it turns out are all historic.

They didn't say intergenerational wealth transfer (which is a poor-person issue not a race issue per se - though it has a non-representative racial profile for sure).

I'm not sure what you're suggesting with "network effects", presumably people in established positions of power can maintain a discriminatory hold on those allowed to join the group?

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#628

Post by moftz » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 12:17 PM UTC

erfgh wrote: post #608

ibudiallo wrote: post #140

I usually choose to believe in "the honest mistake". It happens, two people walk in, one of them is the CEO, you assume it is the one on the right. And then when you realize it is a mistake, you apologize. We are only human. But when it happens over and over and over, you can't help but feel frustrated. You realize that people natural instinct is to think you are the subordinate. One second your are on stage at Techc…

> You wouldn't believe how lonely it is. In my team of 150 people, we were two black people. Why do you find this lonely? Do you not like the company of people unless they are black?

Being the same race as someone else is one more thing you may have in common with someone when getting to know them. It's not that every white person or every black person has had the same life experience but when trying to connect with a new group of peers, you may be subconsciously drawn to approach someone that looks more like you before you approach someone that doesn't. Humans are still very tribal animals so we should be trying to make more diverse connections to others, to be more inclusive. Diversity in this sense doesn't just mean race but can also mean different genders, age groups, faiths, socio-economic classes, personalities, and physical abilities. Making more inclusive connections (other than based on appearance) can be hard because it requires actually getting to know someone first.

I'm sure the parent comment doesn't mean that they only like the company of other black people. It's more likely they feel like an outsider on their team simply due to looking different and having a different cultural upbringing than their other teammates. A more inclusive team would have likely made the parent comment not feel this way.

If you were on a team of 148 people of another race and there was only one other person that was the same as you, would you feel a little out of place?

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#629

Post by darkerside » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 12:22 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #617

darkerside wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think poster was referring to the fact that workplaces are naturally fun of microaggressions regardless of race or sex, so it's easy to point the finger. It's analogous to how everybody's speeding, so everybody's guilty, and anyone can be pulled over (but usually the black person will happen to be the one pulled over).

>usually the black person will happen to be the one pulled over // Which country are you in? Have you checked that statistic or did you assume it?

US, and no, I didn't need to check the statistic. Do you also think people shouldn't be protesting because they haven't proven black people are being targeted disproportionately by police to a 95% confidence interval?

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#630

Post by flippyhead » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 12:22 PM UTC

ibudiallo wrote: post #140

I usually choose to believe in "the honest mistake". It happens, two people walk in, one of them is the CEO, you assume it is the one on the right. And then when you realize it is a mistake, you apologize. We are only human. But when it happens over and over and over, you can't help but feel frustrated. You realize that people natural instinct is to think you are the subordinate. One second your are on stage at Techc…

My personal strategy to avoid this is to just ask the person I think is least likely to be the CEO or whatever. If you are wrong, often the recipient feels flattered.