For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business • Hacker News Board

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#411

Post by pdonis » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 3:32 AM UTC

fzeroracer wrote: post #306

pdonis wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we can't make progress as a society until we own that discomfort and are willing to have frank conversations about racism. I am all for having frank conversations, but I think the topic needs to be broader than "racism". It needs to be "systematic inequality of treatment". Or even better, "systematic violations of basic human rights". Then we can focus on why our society, which is supposed to be based on everybody…

We can't solve systematic inequality until we solve the inequality black people face. You want to broaden the topic but by doing so, you're erasing all nuance and approaches for solving a problem.

> We can't solve systematic inequality until we solve the inequality black people face.

You're looking at it backwards. The inequality black people face is systematic inequality. (I would argue that it's actually as much based on culture and poverty as on race.) But you can't fix it by focusing on the racial aspect of it. You have to focus on the systematic aspect, because that's the root problem.

> You want to broaden the topic but by doing so, you're erasing all nuance and approaches for solving a problem.

We've been trying "all nuance and approaches" based on the racial aspect for decades, if not longer, and it hasn't helped. The systematic problems, if anything, are worse now than they were in the 1960s when the landmark civil rights laws were passed. If those laws, plus the huge structure of regulations, affirmative action, and so on that has grown up around them, hasn't fixed the problem in more than half a century, maybe it's time to consider the possibility that the root problem is something else, like the system as a whole being corrupt, and try to fix that instead.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#412

Post by newen » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 3:35 AM UTC

scruple wrote: post #381

solveit wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can someone get me an actual number so I know what to think?

Estimated at $8 billion dollars a year [0]. I found this book review [1] to be spot-on with my reading of the DiAngelo book, and this is also where I learned of the above estimate from the Washington Post. > As a business journalist, however, I’ve chronicled the slow progress people of color have made in the corporate world, even as companies spend, by one measure, more than $8 billion a year on diversity initiatives…

For comparison, US film industry revenue is around $11 billion a year.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#413

Post by GaryNumanVevo » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 3:38 AM UTC

Reedx wrote: post #338

GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm skeptical about Robin Diangelo, I read her book a few months ago, and it only seems to be an advertisement for her services as an anti-racist instructor. Her entire argument frames race relations within the context of the workplace which is problematic because her approach is coercive, not educational. It's more a guide on "how not to get fired for being racist" than anything. There are much better books for foun…

Your skepticism is well warranted. Unfalsifiable theory, dogma you can't question, purity tests, good vs evil, original sin, heresy, excommunication, self-flagellation and so on... It's a religion and Kafkatrap, but not yet widely recognized as such. Further explanation: https://newdiscourses.com/2020/06/intellectual-fraud-robin-d... https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/12/why-third-... https://www.wsj.com/…

To be clear, I don't think Anti-racism isn't a kafkatrap or "religion". I take issue with the polite white-centric material made to further coddle and remove liability from future racist incidents.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#414

Post by Pfhreak » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 3:42 AM UTC

Grustaf wrote: post #348

Pfhreak wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No normal parent has said anything even remotely like that in the last 30 years. You haven't been exposed to a very broad range of parents. I've seen parents who very tightly control which toys, clothes, and grooming choices their kids make because they don't align with the parent's gender expectations. It's frustratingly common in the US.

Well I only had one set of parents myself that is true. But do you actually think that the reason 9 out of 10 computer scientists are men is that almost all parents tell their daughters to stay away from STEM fields? How does that tally with the female representation in medicine and biology?

Google's published tech stats suggest the ratio is closer to 7 in 10. Women physicians are 3-4 in 10. Biology appears to be 6 in 10 from what I could find (and is relatively unique in STEM fields, also not out of line with the socialization that animals/horses/veterinarians/marine biologists are often socialized as girls vocations).

And yeah, I think it's a potential contributing factor (one of many). Kids in many parts of the country are socialized that certain things are only for certain genders. It sucks. Let kids like whatever they want.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#415

Post by seppin » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 3:51 AM UTC

Press2forEN wrote: post #199

lukev wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you wait to do anything about systemic racism until it's fully quantified, it will be a long time until we can make any progress. Meanwhile, a central point of the book is one that should be self evident. Talking about racism makes white people[1] uncomfortable. I know this to be true from experience. And we can't make progress as a society until we own that discomfort and are willing to have frank conversations a…

> Talking about racism makes white people uncomfortable. When the basic premise of the argument is that white Americans are born irredeemably flawed[1], you're unlikely to win many white supporters other than the most guilt-ridden. I suppose the tactic is to impart as much guilt as possible. But that doesn't make the argument a good one. [1] https://twitter.com/DisrnNews/status/1266857347567190016

Van Jones was right (even the best intentioned are conditioned by forces beyond their control), and you added the word "irredeemable". No one said there isn't a fix. Culture racism is learned, it can be unlearned.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#416

Post by taurath » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 3:51 AM UTC

Reedx wrote: post #338

GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm skeptical about Robin Diangelo, I read her book a few months ago, and it only seems to be an advertisement for her services as an anti-racist instructor. Her entire argument frames race relations within the context of the workplace which is problematic because her approach is coercive, not educational. It's more a guide on "how not to get fired for being racist" than anything. There are much better books for foun…

Your skepticism is well warranted. Unfalsifiable theory, dogma you can't question, purity tests, good vs evil, original sin, heresy, excommunication, self-flagellation and so on... It's a religion and Kafkatrap, but not yet widely recognized as such. Further explanation: https://newdiscourses.com/2020/06/intellectual-fraud-robin-d... https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/12/why-third-... https://www.wsj.com/…

Newdiscourses seems to be a website dedicated /entirely/ to taking down the author and the book. A sampling of their articles over the past 2 weeks:

"In Defense of the Status Quo"

"White Silence is NOT Violence"

"A Principled Statement of Opposition to Critical Race Theory"

"Eight Big Reasons Critical Race Theory is Terrible for Dealing with Racism"

Further investigation shows the site owner, James Lindsay makes his entire living being an activist against gender studies and critical race theory. There's an extraordinary amount of resources dedicated to pushing back against the Robin Diangelo. Having heard her speak and having read at least a bit of her book, most of it is showing white people that all the things that we've tried over the past 10, 20 years are clearly not working. There's little improvement in inclusiveness in traditional white/male dominated cultures, such as the engineering teams at FAANGs for instance. Its insisting that you do something actually about it rather than patting yourself on the back for doing what you think is the right things. It takes a great amount of twisting about to ignore the main points, and all of the writers you linked have done so.

What you call the "dogma" of dealing with a racist culture I call people lived experience. Its heartbreaking to me how very conservative-minded and flat out defensive on issues of inclusion and race the HN community has been when the subject of race is allowed to be a thread.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#417

Post by taurath » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 3:54 AM UTC

ravenstine wrote: post #167

GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm skeptical about Robin Diangelo, I read her book a few months ago, and it only seems to be an advertisement for her services as an anti-racist instructor. Her entire argument frames race relations within the context of the workplace which is problematic because her approach is coercive, not educational. It's more a guide on "how not to get fired for being racist" than anything. There are much better books for foun…

> Her entire argument frames race relations within the context of the workplace which is problematic because her approach is coercive, not educational. It's also problematic because the workplace inherently has an underlying adversarial quality that can provide a never-ending supply of "microaggressions" and various forms of otherings that effectively sow more division than actually get non-whites anywhere. The autho…

> It's also problematic because the workplace inherently has an underlying adversarial quality that can provide a never-ending supply of "microaggressions"

Its also the only place in adulthood where people willingly or unwillingly must work together with people different than them and not necessarily of their choosing to reach a common goal.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#418

Post by typon » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 3:54 AM UTC

GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #57

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #21

I thought this was a great article. One of the most interesting things to me was how the embarrassment/defensiveness of the white people involved was one of the biggest blocks to the black CEOs in their advancement, e.g. the VCs who "just wanted to get the hell out of there" after mistaking a white subordinate for the CEO. I've recently been reading/watching some videos and writings by Robin Diangelo on systemic raci…

I'm skeptical about Robin Diangelo, I read her book a few months ago, and it only seems to be an advertisement for her services as an anti-racist instructor. Her entire argument frames race relations within the context of the workplace which is problematic because her approach is coercive, not educational. It's more a guide on "how not to get fired for being racist" than anything. There are much better books for foun…

It's really telling how during this entire BLM revival, white people have been recommending this particular book - written by a white author. Even in the midst of a racial awareness campaign, black voices are muffled.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#419

Post by greenhatglack » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 3:54 AM UTC

seppin wrote: post #385

greenhatglack wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of money to be made in "anti-racism" and "gender-science", especially in tax-heavy countries. No one ever dares to question it, and it's "good" causes that could use some of the workers income. I'll be contrarian and recommend Thomas Sowell's "Black Rednecks and White Liberals" instead.

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rweblFwt-BM contrarian =/ smart. Sometimes you are objecting for the sake of objecting.

Not discussing the content, but you picked a 3 minute clip out of a 36 minute long videos as if the clip was pre-made to discredit him, I understand certain people fear a black man with a contrarian point of view as it disturbs their senses, but this is a bit too much.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#420

Post by greenhatglack » Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 3:55 AM UTC

SquishyPanda23 wrote: post #377

greenhatglack wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of money to be made in "anti-racism" and "gender-science", especially in tax-heavy countries. No one ever dares to question it, and it's "good" causes that could use some of the workers income. I'll be contrarian and recommend Thomas Sowell's "Black Rednecks and White Liberals" instead.

> I'll be contrarian Why do right-leaning libertarians always have to pretend they're being contrarians? It would be clearer to just say something like "if you're interested in a conservative take on this issue, check out Thomas Sowell."

Relax, I was contrarian in contrast to the parent, why bring your political baggage into the mix?

I doubt your definition of "right leaning libertarian", belongs to someone who adheres to pragmatism, meritocracy, multiracialism and Asian values or communitarianism, right?