For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business • Hacker News Board

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#191

Post by Eleopteryx » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:47 PM UTC

DevX101 wrote: post #148

Some of the most successful blacks in tech had to 'hide' their blackness to achieve success. Robert Smith, the wealthiest black man in America, specifically didn't put up a photo on his investment firm's site to avoid any possibility of bias (now that he's a multi-billionaire who's "made it", this is no longer a concern). Calendly, who's CEO is black, and is one of the top performing black led tech startups curiously…

I've tried a strategy like that in various contexts. e.g. not uploading a photo of myself on a Slack workspace. How differently might people read what I'm saying if they assume that I'm white versus knowing that I'm black?

I thought it wise to try this strategy when looking for employment, but I think it actually works against me in that case. If the employer knows I'm black then they can filter me out from the get-go and save both of us time rather than be dragged through a pointless interview process. It's hard to really quantify the exact degree to which my race is a detriment to how I'm perceived, but I sense it often enough to know that it's there in some capacity.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#192

Post by scollet » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:49 PM UTC

adjkant wrote: post #147

wottamap wrote: post #115

The messages that need to be said right now are very difficult to say because people have steeled themselves. But they need to be said. This is not meant to be flamebait, I truly deeply believe these messages need to be heard and understood, so please understand that I'm speaking in good faith here. If you feel strongly that I am wrong, please reply with well thought out reasons why. I will listen. Articles like this…

> Blacks that believe cops are out to kill them will be more likely to resist arrest and get killed. Statements like this make it clear that this opinion is either highly uneducated or clearly not in good faith. Time and time again, black people in America will tell you that they have to sit their kids down and explain in fine grain detail what do to if the cops pull them over so they are not killed, a conversation v…

I would also like to highlight

> Society pretending that there is massive racism when there isn't is itself structural racism.

If you believe you cannot succeed due to all this racism, that will be sulf-fulfilling.

Blacks that believe in widespread racism will be less likely to go to university and get a job

The grandparent is victim-blaming PoC for not having the "Right mentality". The comment itself is what has been identified as polite racism, but I see this as rather rude.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#193

Post by CapitalistCartr » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:50 PM UTC

Thorentis wrote: post #183

How is it racist to assume that in a country of mostly white people, the CEO would be white? That isn't racist. Unless you consciously thought the black person in the room was less competent just because they were black, it isn't racism. If I was in India, and walked into a company meeting with a diverse set of people, I would assume the Indian looking person is the CEO. If I was in Japan, I would assume the Japanese…

It is racism. There is no need to pre-judge the situation at all. Merely being in the moment and letting the people in front of you tell you all you want to know is sufficient. Pre-judging the people instead of waiting for them to tell you is using prejudice as an unneeded shortcut. It seems obvious because the person so doing is racist. To change, that person would have to acknowledge that it seemed obvious to them because they have a subconcious "rule" CEO cannot = black. Once they see it, it'll be gone.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#194

Post by Thorentis » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:50 PM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #190

Thorentis wrote: post #183

How is it racist to assume that in a country of mostly white people, the CEO would be white? That isn't racist. Unless you consciously thought the black person in the room was less competent just because they were black, it isn't racism. If I was in India, and walked into a company meeting with a diverse set of people, I would assume the Indian looking person is the CEO. If I was in Japan, I would assume the Japanese…

This is the human brain using pattern recognition to evaluate a situation and infer information as best it can under the circumstances. That isn't a different thing than "racism". When you don't know, don't assume.

Easy to say that, but the human brain does this - to its advantage - multiple times daily. It's how humans learn and adapt. It is a central part of what makes humans better than other species as adapting to environments and performing well in unfamiliar situations. There is nothing racist about making an unintentional mistake. This whole premise assumes that being a CEO equals competence and a higher level of ability - a claim which I thoroughly reject anyway.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#195

Post by js2 » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:52 PM UTC

ibudiallo wrote: post #140

I usually choose to believe in "the honest mistake". It happens, two people walk in, one of them is the CEO, you assume it is the one on the right. And then when you realize it is a mistake, you apologize. We are only human. But when it happens over and over and over, you can't help but feel frustrated. You realize that people natural instinct is to think you are the subordinate. One second your are on stage at Techc…

I am Jewish. This gives me no insight into what it is to be black in America. But it does give me some insight into what it is to be a minority in America. I have an inkling of your loneliness and you have my profound sympathy. I wish everyone could experience what it is to be a minority in some, any, aspect of their identity to the extent that it might provide them some empathy for others.

(I also never realized what it must feel like to be a Christian in America until I visited Israel for the first time and had a sense of being among "my people", which didn't really make any sense because I'm not Israeli, but at the same time it felt comforting being among so many Jews in a greater way than when I'm at temple.)

Of course, unless I announce I am Jewish, I know I'm not being judged by it. I can only imagine how difficult it is that whenever you are slighted, you don't know for certain whether it is due to being black. It must be very hard not to start assuming that it's always the reason.

I'll watch for your future post. I look forward to reading it.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#196

Post by wottamap » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:53 PM UTC

adjkant wrote: post #147

wottamap wrote: post #115

The messages that need to be said right now are very difficult to say because people have steeled themselves. But they need to be said. This is not meant to be flamebait, I truly deeply believe these messages need to be heard and understood, so please understand that I'm speaking in good faith here. If you feel strongly that I am wrong, please reply with well thought out reasons why. I will listen. Articles like this…

> Blacks that believe cops are out to kill them will be more likely to resist arrest and get killed. Statements like this make it clear that this opinion is either highly uneducated or clearly not in good faith. Time and time again, black people in America will tell you that they have to sit their kids down and explain in fine grain detail what do to if the cops pull them over so they are not killed, a conversation v…

Thank you for this perspective. I was unaware of what you describe. Also, thank you for not assuming bad faith.

This conversation is difficult to have, but I would be doing everyone a disservice if I didn't state what I thought was true and if I was unwilling to be publicly wrong. Downvotes are more instructive than upvotes.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#197

Post by Thorentis » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:54 PM UTC

CapitalistCartr wrote: post #193

Thorentis wrote: post #183

How is it racist to assume that in a country of mostly white people, the CEO would be white? That isn't racist. Unless you consciously thought the black person in the room was less competent just because they were black, it isn't racism. If I was in India, and walked into a company meeting with a diverse set of people, I would assume the Indian looking person is the CEO. If I was in Japan, I would assume the Japanese…

It is racism. There is no need to pre-judge the situation at all. Merely being in the moment and letting the people in front of you tell you all you want to know is sufficient. Pre-judging the people instead of waiting for them to tell you is using prejudice as an unneeded shortcut. It seems obvious because the person so doing is racist. To change, that person would have to acknowledge that it seemed obvious to them…

There was no conscious prejudgement to remove from your behaviour. Humans like to fit in, and like to be informed. The human brain is fantastic at adapting to new situations because of its ability to infer information from past experiences. Put me in a high pressure meeting where the stakes are high and multiple people I don't know, and my brain will be working overtime to help me out. And that may involve my brain using my past experiences to feed me information that it thinks will help me. Such as identifying the roles people play. If I have only ever met white CEOs, or perhaps even if most people in my social circle are white, it is not unreasonable for my brain to infer that the CEO is white. Nothing racist about it. It would be racist for me to then consciously assume that the black person is less qualified to be the CEO purely based on their skin color, but that's not what would've happened initially.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#198

Post by Avicebron » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:55 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #156

pdonis wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we can't make progress as a society until we own that discomfort and are willing to have frank conversations about racism. I am all for having frank conversations, but I think the topic needs to be broader than "racism". It needs to be "systematic inequality of treatment". Or even better, "systematic violations of basic human rights". Then we can focus on why our society, which is supposed to be based on everybody…

Why do we have to talk about everything bad before we talk about one thing that's bad, especially when it comes to black people? Why, when the aftereffects of American slavery are being discussed, is there always somebody who says that we have to talk about Middle Eastern and African slavery first? Are the only important problems universal ones?

No but it comes off as disingenuous because people talk about a lot of ill in the US without getting the level of outrage that this topic brings, rampant inequality, corporate stranglehold of the government and horrible work conditions for many people, regardless of the color of their skin. So when someone says, lets talk about more than this problem, they get sidelined and everything else is pushed further to the back burner.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#199

Post by Press2forEN » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:55 PM UTC

lukev wrote: post #121

JPKab wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read "White Fragility". While I completely agree that the stories in this article are hugely problematic and represent issues that need to be solved, I think books like "White Fragility" are not helpful in solving them. This is due to a focus on group identity, and describing "White" as if it's a monolithic group of people, all with the same culture, emotions, and reactions. Another interesting aspect I identifi…

If you wait to do anything about systemic racism until it's fully quantified, it will be a long time until we can make any progress. Meanwhile, a central point of the book is one that should be self evident. Talking about racism makes white people[1] uncomfortable. I know this to be true from experience. And we can't make progress as a society until we own that discomfort and are willing to have frank conversations a…

> Talking about racism makes white people uncomfortable.

When the basic premise of the argument is that white Americans are born irredeemably flawed[1], you're unlikely to win many white supporters other than the most guilt-ridden.

I suppose the tactic is to impart as much guilt as possible. But that doesn't make the argument a good one.

[1] https://twitter.com/DisrnNews/status/1266857347567190016

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#200

Post by m0zg » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:56 PM UTC

tashi wrote: post #181

m0zg wrote: post #132

I would have never even guessed Hayes is black. He looks Middle Eastern to me. He doesn't look like a CEO in these pictures: a constantly worried facial expression sends the wrong message IMO. Givens does project calm confidence, and therefore looks like a boss. I think his experience is more illustrative of the problem here.

That's funny, I'm black too and I used to have white people misread my facial expression a lot. I ended up training myself to use a different, more "neutral-looking" resting face in public.

I'm white and people think I'm angry and unapproachable. It is uncommon in my country of origin to smile for no reason, and if one doesn't do it here in the US, people mistake what I consider my "neutral" face as hostility. I'm still working on it. Worse yet, it's also not common in the Russian culture to maintain constant eye contact with strangers, not doing which in the US means that one is trying to mislead and they're not trustworthy.