Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 828 posts

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#171

Post by secondcoming »

GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #57
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #21

I thought this was a great article. One of the most interesting things to me was how the embarrassment/defensiveness of the white people involved was one of the biggest blocks to the black CEOs in their advancement, e.g. the VCs who "just wanted to get the hell out of there" after mistaking a white subordinate for the CEO. I've recently been reading/watching some videos and writings by Robin Diangelo on systemic raci…

I'm skeptical about Robin Diangelo, I read her book a few months ago, and it only seems to be an advertisement for her services as an anti-racist instructor. Her entire argument frames race relations within the context of the workplace which is problematic because her approach is coercive, not educational. It's more a guide on "how not to get fired for being racist" than anything. There are much better books for foun…

There's also the works of Thomas Sowell.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=thomas+sowell

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#172

Post by Maultasche »

_8j50 wrote: post #101
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #21

I thought this was a great article. One of the most interesting things to me was how the embarrassment/defensiveness of the white people involved was one of the biggest blocks to the black CEOs in their advancement, e.g. the VCs who "just wanted to get the hell out of there" after mistaking a white subordinate for the CEO. I've recently been reading/watching some videos and writings by Robin Diangelo on systemic raci…

It is stereotyping but not neccesarily racism. I've made the same mistake at a car shop, I thought the small lady on my side of the counter was a customer, i ignored her and talked to the guy behind the counter, but turns out she was the boss+worker and the guy was helping out. I did feel embarrassed, but I know it's not because I think less of women, you just don't see women in those roles a lot. Maybe associative g…

I don't see why that is stereotyping. I would assume that anyone on the customer side of the counter is a customer and anyone on the other side of the counter works there no matter what they look like.

If you had done that while she was on the other side of the counter or if she was wearing some kind of obvious uniform you'd have a point. However, if she was on your side of the counter and had no obvious signs of working there, there would be no reason to think she was anything but a customer.

The alternative would be to address all the customers as if they worked there, and that's just not practical.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#173

Post by commoner »

_8j50 wrote: post #150
commoner wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your example would be a case of sexism (sexual stereotyping), not racism (racial stereotyping). It may have been unintentional, but it was still sexism. In this type of situation, the empathetic resolution would be to apologize for causing the victim's embarrassment, which most likely exceeds your own.

So, my point is, there is a big difference between intent and subconscious thought process. The latter can be fixed with apologies and education as you alluded. but the former can't and unless you believe someone intended the offense, you should not be offended. And the obvious answer to why I didn't apologize and why in the article they didn't apologize is because it makes them uncomfortable but more importantly,unl…

If you would prefer to withhold a deserved apology to avoid being perceived as "weak", that's your prerogative. However, making a sexual stereotype and then refusing to acknowledge it is a means of perpetuating sexism. It's true that systemic change is needed to eliminate sexism and racism, but society does not change all at once: every action (including every apology) contributes to the solution.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#174

Post by nsporillo »

claudeganon wrote: post #46
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #21

I thought this was a great article. One of the most interesting things to me was how the embarrassment/defensiveness of the white people involved was one of the biggest blocks to the black CEOs in their advancement, e.g. the VCs who "just wanted to get the hell out of there" after mistaking a white subordinate for the CEO. I've recently been reading/watching some videos and writings by Robin Diangelo on systemic raci…

Robin Diangelo’s work doesn’t seem to me very good or well informed on what anti-racism actually constitutes. It seems mostly like a schtick to sell to HR managers. The way that she essentializes race seems like a bizarre, inverted reification of whiteness (and by extension white supremacy), than any deconstruction or attack on it. Anti-racism is about taking on the powers and material structures that reproduce racis…

What exactly are the powers and material structures that contribute to the perceived racism in our society?

From my limited understanding of this position, it sounds like the goal is a dismantling of police and courts which form the backbone of a civil rule of law society.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#175

Post by zozbot234 »

reitanqild wrote: post #164
zozbot234 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would the person on the victim end of this feel humiliated? Why wouldn't they? Being unfavorably stereotyped is almost universally frustrating and humiliating, regardless of any systemic concerns about racism and the like. Wrt. the case mentioned by parent, it seems clear to me that the person involved should definitely apologize for their social faux pas and mistaken assumptions-- and that seeing them refuse t…

>> Why would the person on the victim end of this feel humiliated? > Why wouldn't they? Being unfavorably stereotyped is almost universally frustrating and humiliating, I'd say because feeling humiliated is a completely wrong feeling but maybe something is lost in translation? Here is my attempt, note that I'm not a native English speaker and I also haven't been in the US for long enough to understand all American cu…

> - humiliated on the other hand is when someone tells others about something dumb you did.

The whole point of OP's article is to say nope, this is quite wrong. There's still a lot of unwarranted shame and, yes, humiliation attached to even something as ordinary as being CEO of a business-- if you happen to be Black. It's not an easy problem to solve, and most naïve, even well-intentioned suggestions don't necessarily help.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#176

Post by vkou »

_8j50 wrote: post #152
zozbot234 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would the person on the victim end of this feel humiliated? Why wouldn't they? Being unfavorably stereotyped is almost universally frustrating and humiliating, regardless of any systemic concerns about racism and the like. Wrt. the case mentioned by parent, it seems clear to me that the person involved should definitely apologize for their social faux pas and mistaken assumptions-- and that seeing them refuse t…

If someone spills a drink on you by mistake at a restaurant, you would be angry not embarrased. The humility belongs to the person that stepped on the figurative poo.

If you consistently get drinks spilled on you in restaurants, but none of your friends have drinks spilled on them, you might start feeling humiliated for constantly being singled out for that sort of thing... And how your mere presence in a group creates uncomfortable situations for both you, and everyone else involved.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#177

Post by lol2143651 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #32

Stylistic question. I noticed Black and White capitalized in this article. Is that an emerging convention?

It's just refreshing the euphemism. It's as old as time.

> On March 7, 1930, The Times announced its new policy on the editorial page: “In our Style Book, Negro is now added to the list of words to be capitalized. It is not merely a typographical change, it is an act in recognition of racial respect for those who have been generations in the ‘lower case.’ ”

Here we go again.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#178

Post by golf1052 »

Grustaf wrote: post #113
panopticon wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's a stereotype, likely a correct one [snip], and most importantly: not harmful. It's just a stereotype. Citation on those not being harmful? Stereotypes like that seem to be a driving factor in why STEM fields are very male dominated. "Girls don't like cars; go find some dolls to play with."

No normal parent has said anything even remotely like that in the last 30 years. Why is it so terrible to accept that men and women on average have different interests? Everyone knows that testosterone makes young men orders of magnitude more violent, why is it inconceivable that they could also be 4 times more interested in more mechanic play? It’s been observed even in almost newborn chimpanzees for Gods sake.

I think it's frustrating that people make claims to ideas that they are vaguely aware about. The vagueness can lead to repeating incorrect claims which I think is harmful, especially when discussing sensitive topics.

> Everyone knows that testosterone makes young men orders of magnitude more violent

You're using hyperbole but yes it's commonly understood that there's a link between testosterone and aggression, however you extend that claim to something completely different

> why is it inconceivable that they could also be 4 times more interested in more mechanic play? It’s been observed even in almost newborn chimpanzees for Gods sake.

I counter that this second claim is related to the first, is it that testosterone makes young males more likely to play with mechanical objects? There are a few articles that reference this study from 2008 [1]. It refers to rhesus monkeys not chimpanzees and their hypothesis at the end is much more nuanced

>We offer the hypothesis that toy preferences reflect hormonally influenced behavioral and cognitive biases which are sculpted by social processes into the sex differences seen in monkeys and humans.

Furthermore there is at least 1 meta-analysis from 2017 [2] that highlights

> Gender differences in toy choice exist and appear to be the product of both innate and social forces. > Despite methodological variation in the choice and number of toys offered, context of testing, and age of child, the consistency in finding sex differences in children's preferences for toys typed

Note they do not make the claim that testosterone is the cause of these differences. Scientists try to be careful about the language they use, we should be just as careful.

1: Sex differences in rhesus monkey toy preferences parallel those of children - https://doi.org/10.1016/j.yhbeh.2008.03.008

2: Sex differences in children's toy preferences: A systematic review, meta‐regression, and meta‐analysis - https://doi.org/10.1002/icd.2064

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#179

Post by neonate »

ahominid wrote: post #138

Is it possible that when put in unfamiliar situations, people will by default direct themselves toward others who are most like themselves? A hypothetical: Reverse all the races in the VC/CEO situation. Who would the black VC assume was the CEO? Repeat the experiment with whichever combination of race/sex you like.

Perhaps the answer is obvious, but what's the point of such a thought experiment? The issue is how to deal with the world we actually live in. "It would be just as bad in an opposite world" does not sound like a useful finding.
Post reply on HN