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For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

bloomberg.com

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Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#161

Post by pessimizer »

DevX101 wrote: post #148

Some of the most successful blacks in tech had to 'hide' their blackness to achieve success. Robert Smith, the wealthiest black man in America, specifically didn't put up a photo on his investment firm's site to avoid any possibility of bias (now that he's a multi-billionaire who's "made it", this is no longer a concern). Calendly, who's CEO is black, and is one of the top performing black led tech startups curiously…

> You're assumed to be mediocre (or worse) until you can prove yourself exceptional.

And to make this personal, feeling like you have to be the best in every group in order to be respected enough that you can't be ignored leads to overwork and burnout.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#162

Post by birdyrooster »

chongli wrote: post #73
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #21

I thought this was a great article. One of the most interesting things to me was how the embarrassment/defensiveness of the white people involved was one of the biggest blocks to the black CEOs in their advancement, e.g. the VCs who "just wanted to get the hell out of there" after mistaking a white subordinate for the CEO. I've recently been reading/watching some videos and writings by Robin Diangelo on systemic raci…

I think the trouble here is the double meaning of the word racist. When some people hear the word, they think of cross-burning fanatics and mass murderers. On the other hand, the current big conversation is about how everyone is racist and that society is rife with systemic racism. That creates a catch-22 for anyone who commits a faux-pas (like mistaking the black CEO for a subordinate). Either admit to racism and ca…

Try approaching someone in denial about their alcoholism and talk about alcoholism they will act very similarly. These people need rehab.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#163

Post by zozbot234 »

_8j50 wrote: post #152
zozbot234 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would the person on the victim end of this feel humiliated? Why wouldn't they? Being unfavorably stereotyped is almost universally frustrating and humiliating, regardless of any systemic concerns about racism and the like. Wrt. the case mentioned by parent, it seems clear to me that the person involved should definitely apologize for their social faux pas and mistaken assumptions-- and that seeing them refuse t…

If someone spills a drink on you by mistake at a restaurant, you would be angry not embarrased. The humility belongs to the person that stepped on the figurative poo.

Spilling a drink is not the same as ascribing a harmful and unfavorable stereotype. And being angry/embarassed is not mutually exclusive, you might feel a bit of both.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#164

Post by reitanqild »

zozbot234 wrote: post #135
_8j50 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is stereotyping but not neccesarily racism. I've made the same mistake at a car shop, I thought the small lady on my side of the counter was a customer, i ignored her and talked to the guy behind the counter, but turns out she was the boss+worker and the guy was helping out. I did feel embarrassed, but I know it's not because I think less of women, you just don't see women in those roles a lot. Maybe associative g…

> Why would the person on the victim end of this feel humiliated? Why wouldn't they? Being unfavorably stereotyped is almost universally frustrating and humiliating, regardless of any systemic concerns about racism and the like. Wrt. the case mentioned by parent, it seems clear to me that the person involved should definitely apologize for their social faux pas and mistaken assumptions-- and that seeing them refuse t…

>> Why would the person on the victim end of this feel humiliated?

> Why wouldn't they? Being unfavorably stereotyped is almost universally frustrating and humiliating,

I'd say because feeling humiliated is a completely wrong feeling but maybe something is lost in translation?

Here is my attempt, note that I'm not a native English speaker and I also haven't been in the US for long enough to understand all American customs but I read a lot of English and write a lot English:

- if someone does a mistake in front of others the perpetrator will normally feel embarrassed

- if this happens often enough the victim will feel annoyed and frustrated

- humiliated on the other hand is when someone tells others about something dumb you did.

is this correct?

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#165

Post by sixstringtheory »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #32

Stylistic question. I noticed Black and White capitalized in this article. Is that an emerging convention?

FWIW, there is "capital D" Deaf and "little d" deaf. This article provides some interesting discussion [0].

I'm not claiming to be an expert in either area, and I don't mean to draw parallels between them. I think it just speaks to how complicated identity is for humans, not to even begin to mention empathy.

[0]: https://www.deafax.org/single-post/2016/06/08/What-are-big-D...

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#166

Post by totetsu »

_8j50 wrote: post #150
commoner wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your example would be a case of sexism (sexual stereotyping), not racism (racial stereotyping). It may have been unintentional, but it was still sexism. In this type of situation, the empathetic resolution would be to apologize for causing the victim's embarrassment, which most likely exceeds your own.

So, my point is, there is a big difference between intent and subconscious thought process. The latter can be fixed with apologies and education as you alluded. but the former can't and unless you believe someone intended the offense, you should not be offended. And the obvious answer to why I didn't apologize and why in the article they didn't apologize is because it makes them uncomfortable but more importantly,unl…

Some people take the view that racism can't be defined as only coming from an individuals with intent. This is because the outcome of the actions are what hurts people, regardless of intent. So someone being hurt as a result of something subconscious, or a stereotype, are still experiencing racism. From this view racism has a systematic or societal definition. Where the society plays a part in transmitting and perpetuating stereotypes, and building the subconscious.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#167

Post by ravenstine »

GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #57
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #21

I thought this was a great article. One of the most interesting things to me was how the embarrassment/defensiveness of the white people involved was one of the biggest blocks to the black CEOs in their advancement, e.g. the VCs who "just wanted to get the hell out of there" after mistaking a white subordinate for the CEO. I've recently been reading/watching some videos and writings by Robin Diangelo on systemic raci…

I'm skeptical about Robin Diangelo, I read her book a few months ago, and it only seems to be an advertisement for her services as an anti-racist instructor. Her entire argument frames race relations within the context of the workplace which is problematic because her approach is coercive, not educational. It's more a guide on "how not to get fired for being racist" than anything. There are much better books for foun…

> Her entire argument frames race relations within the context of the workplace which is problematic because her approach is coercive, not educational.

It's also problematic because the workplace inherently has an underlying adversarial quality that can provide a never-ending supply of "microaggressions" and various forms of otherings that effectively sow more division than actually get non-whites anywhere.

The author is particularly clever for writing a book for the target of anti-racism, because the market for "look who's racist" media is thoroughly saturated.

Since race is becoming a greater and greater issue, I imagine it will continue to become a get-rich-quick scheme for some adept to the English language, or the language of CorporateSpeak.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#168

Post by pessimizer »

thex10 wrote: post #123
mlpgx wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that everyone has his own personal experiences. In my surroundings I've seen black women get funding where white men did not. I've seen minorities preferred in hiring. The world has changed drastically in the last five years. It is white men who feel silenced in the tech industry, by HR, the press, CEOs and activists. So the article can be true of course, but it aligns less and less with what we see in…

> The problem is that everyone has his own personal experiences. Everyone has their own personal experience, that's just an unremarkable fact, not a _problem_. > It is white men who feel silenced in the tech industry, by HR, the press, CEOs and activists. How are you so sure your observation is specific to white men?

It's strange for mlpgx from talking about how everyone's experience is unique to declaring a universal silencing of all white men (for all white men, some of whom I'm sure wouldn't agree) based on "what we see in the field."

Who is "we", even?

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#169

Post by rootusrootus »

commoner wrote: post #117
_8j50 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is stereotyping but not neccesarily racism. I've made the same mistake at a car shop, I thought the small lady on my side of the counter was a customer, i ignored her and talked to the guy behind the counter, but turns out she was the boss+worker and the guy was helping out. I did feel embarrassed, but I know it's not because I think less of women, you just don't see women in those roles a lot. Maybe associative g…

Your example would be a case of sexism (sexual stereotyping), not racism (racial stereotyping). It may have been unintentional, but it was still sexism. In this type of situation, the empathetic resolution would be to apologize for causing the victim's embarrassment, which most likely exceeds your own.

> Your example would be a case of sexism

The fact that she was standing on the customer side of the counter would probably be a bigger factor than her gender.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#170

Post by Avicebron »

GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #118
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Her entire argument frames race relations within the context of the workplace which is problematic because her approach is coercive, not educational. It's more a guide on "how not to get fired for being racist" than anything. I admit I only just started reading her book, so can't comment on that, but I would say that's not the takeaway I got from any of the online videos or interviews I've seen of her, most definit…

The video you linked espouses the same ideas. To be anti-racist isn't to simply understand the things one can and cannot say. To be anti-racist is to fundamentally understand the lived experiences of the Black community and how it relates to other structures of power. It's akin to just memorizing a list of microagressions like curse words and never saying them for fear of being fired. Anti-racism provides the tools t…

> Anti-racism provides the tools to contextualize and understand why certain phrases are racist or biased.

Can you expand on this a little bit? It sounds a lot like:

>It's akin to just memorizing a list of microagressions like curse words and never saying them for fear of being fired

With extra steps. What are these tools and how do they avoid accidentally putting the cart in front of the horse in terms of goals vs. reality?

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