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For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

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Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#121

Post by lukev »

JPKab wrote: post #56
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #21

I thought this was a great article. One of the most interesting things to me was how the embarrassment/defensiveness of the white people involved was one of the biggest blocks to the black CEOs in their advancement, e.g. the VCs who "just wanted to get the hell out of there" after mistaking a white subordinate for the CEO. I've recently been reading/watching some videos and writings by Robin Diangelo on systemic raci…

I've read "White Fragility". While I completely agree that the stories in this article are hugely problematic and represent issues that need to be solved, I think books like "White Fragility" are not helpful in solving them. This is due to a focus on group identity, and describing "White" as if it's a monolithic group of people, all with the same culture, emotions, and reactions. Another interesting aspect I identifi…

If you wait to do anything about systemic racism until it's fully quantified, it will be a long time until we can make any progress.

Meanwhile, a central point of the book is one that should be self evident. Talking about racism makes white people[1] uncomfortable. I know this to be true from experience. And we can't make progress as a society until we own that discomfort and are willing to have frank conversations about racism.

I don't see how you need "statistical power" to recognize this or adopt this strategy.

Also, this:

> ccuse/blame them for something that they did not personally do

That's not what the discomfort is about. Of course none of us are _personally_ responsible for the systemic racism in the US. But if we can't even talk about it without getting uncomfortable, how are we going to fix it?

1: If this doesn't apply to you, great, I wasn't talking about you [2]

2: Except if this topic makes you annoyed enough to disagree then yes, I probably am talking about you.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#122

Post by Grustaf »

Domenic_S wrote: post #95
tomp wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's still sexist. Same thing. Also, wrong. A better example would be, "women aren't passionate about driving". That's a stereotype, likely a correct one (i.e. substantiated by statistics... I mean, I'm not certain, but that would be my prior, but I'm very open to changing it), and most importantly: not harmful . It's just a stereotype. I'm not denying that things could be harmful (racism, sexist, ...). But not…

Not going to get into whether "just a stereotype" is harmful generally, but your example really depends on the context. What if you're a woman applying to be a performance driver somewhere, and the response to your application is "women aren't passionate about driving"? That would be harmful.

That would be an absurd response if the woman in question was actually interested. People only use stereotypes when they DONT have specific information.

I’m over forty and and upper middle class. It’s a true stereotype that we don’t tend to be passionate skateboarders, but someone that met me in a skatepark would not draw the conclusion that I’m not interested based on my age and socioeconomics.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#123

Post by thex10 »

mlpgx wrote: post #44
ChuckMcM wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, the discussion of your action here confirms, even more strongly, that not only is the bias real, but also it is sometimes completely opaque to people who hold that bias. Thanks for unflagging it, otherwise I would have missed it I'm sure.

The problem is that everyone has his own personal experiences. In my surroundings I've seen black women get funding where white men did not. I've seen minorities preferred in hiring. The world has changed drastically in the last five years. It is white men who feel silenced in the tech industry, by HR, the press, CEOs and activists. So the article can be true of course, but it aligns less and less with what we see in…

> The problem is that everyone has his own personal experiences.

Everyone has their own personal experience, that's just an unremarkable fact, not a _problem_.

> It is white men who feel silenced in the tech industry, by HR, the press, CEOs and activists.

How are you so sure your observation is specific to white men?

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#124

Post by stormdennis »

Pfhreak wrote: post #55
mlpgx wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that everyone has his own personal experiences. In my surroundings I've seen black women get funding where white men did not. I've seen minorities preferred in hiring. The world has changed drastically in the last five years. It is white men who feel silenced in the tech industry, by HR, the press, CEOs and activists. So the article can be true of course, but it aligns less and less with what we see in…

I don't believe the data aligns with your anecdotes. While you may feel that is the experience today, I would be surprised if it represented the wider system as a whole.

His anecdotes is a way of putting what he's saying down. If it was a minority person saying something about their experiences that you didn't agree with, would you refer to them as their anecdotes?

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#125

Post by leoc »

Here's a recent Twitter thread by Timothy Jones https://twitter.com/timbeejones/ which seems relevant: https://twitter.com/timbeejones/status/1268665921364770816 . I can't vouch for it as I have zero experience of SV or being black, let alone the specifics here, but the author seems to be someone worth hearing on the subject.

Someone always complains about reading Twitter threads, so here's a thread unroll https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1268665921364770816.html while I have also cut and pasted it here (again, this is Timothy Jones not me):

> I’m glad there’s now a vibrant discussion about black tech entrepreneurs and VC. Now might be a good time to discuss an elephant in the room: the systematic pushing aside of Black founders to make way for a White CEO who is “bankable”. Happens more often than not. I’ve seen this happen in two tech bull mkts; I hope those who have newfound interest in Black founders don’t repeat this same mistake

Here's the way it goes: Black Founder has an idea they're passionate about; could be demographically anchored, or just a great idea and they're Black. By some Miracle they raise a seed. They go off, build product, get some revenue even...

Now it's Series A time. Again, by some Miracle they raise a VC Series A. They're now part of the rate 1% of VC backed founders who are black. They add to their board 1-2 VC's from the usual suspects. They start to build a team...

Here's where the move is made. Somewhere between A and going for a B, the VC's on the board call the founder for a "chat". They "strongly suggest" that the founder get some "help" in order to get the company to the next stage. And they know just the guy...

'Cause it's always a guy. I call him "Business Biff". He looks like he's stepped out of central casting for "White Dude CEO". The Board VC's explain that Biff can "help" raise the next round, and "you two should really work together".

Black Founder says: "Ok, cool. Will reach out to Biff on a few things if I need him". VC's give the puzzled, RCA Dog-watching-TV-Look. "You know, we think Biff should really come on board the company to help you out ". "As What?" asks the Black Founder. "I already have a head of Sales/Finance/Marketing/etc"..."Well, we were thinking Biff should become CEO, and you become Chairman" "Sayyyyy whaaaa?" says Black Founder. "Am I being fired?". "Oh, No!" say the VC's. "We want you to stay and guide the strategy, Biff will be responsible for the day to day, and putting together the fundraise"

Not going to go into the details but here's essentially what happens:.

1. VC's realize that having a Black CEO creates financing RISK for the next round.

2. Best way to reduce the risk is to bring in a CEO who "pattern matches"

3. The problem is they still need the Founder. They still need the Founder for (a) mkt knowledge (b) passion so he/she doesn't get fired. But the bump to Chairman is designed to "keep them working, but not in control". It's straight out of the unopened letter in "Invisible Man".

There's a lot more here, but I'm raising the point now so that people realize that downstream of funding, there are still a ton of practices which need reforming. The kicker: The VC's decided to bring Biff in when they did the A. In fact, the seed investors may have suggested it, and backchanneled it to the A rounders. The bottom line is that even the investors realized blackness as a "risk" that needs to be managed down/out.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#126

Post by Veen »

hello_friendos wrote: post #90
JPKab wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read "White Fragility". While I completely agree that the stories in this article are hugely problematic and represent issues that need to be solved, I think books like "White Fragility" are not helpful in solving them. This is due to a focus on group identity, and describing "White" as if it's a monolithic group of people, all with the same culture, emotions, and reactions. Another interesting aspect I identifi…

I think instantly feeling uncomfortable about a term like "White Fragility" and writing an entire comment about being uncomfortable about the term instead of a comment about the racism Black people face in all walks of life is a perfect example of white fragility.

Yes, that's exactly the problem with the concept of white fragility. It's a Kafka trap [0]. You either agree with the concept and its implications/assumptions or you are accused of exemplifying it. It's a clever bit of rhetoric if you're fan of argument by denunciation.

[0]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Kafkatrap

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#127

Post by pdonis »

tomp wrote: post #35
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #21

I thought this was a great article. One of the most interesting things to me was how the embarrassment/defensiveness of the white people involved was one of the biggest blocks to the black CEOs in their advancement, e.g. the VCs who "just wanted to get the hell out of there" after mistaking a white subordinate for the CEO. I've recently been reading/watching some videos and writings by Robin Diangelo on systemic raci…

That's stereotyping, not racism. People make inferences. Like, if there's two folks, one dressed in a suit, the other in baggy clothes with thick glasses, most people (including VCs) would default to the former as the MBA CEO, and the latter as geek CTO Even though it might be the exact opposite! If you make a wrong inference, just accept the correction and move on, no hurt feelings. Similar for old vs. young.

> If you make a wrong inference, just accept the correction and move on, no hurt feelings.

If you're a VC coming to a first meeting with a startup CEO and their team, none of whom you have met in person before, making an inference at all is simply unprofessional. You should be asking. The fact that the VC's inference was that the white person must be the CEO just adds the further insult of racist stereotyping to the insult of unprofessional behavior in this context.

My main takeaway from the article was not "lots of people in the startup world are racist" but "lots of people in the startup world are unprofessional assholes". I think the latter problem is what needs to be fixed.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#128

Post by Talanes »

cortesoft wrote: post #37
quadrifoliate wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I realize how outlandish that may sound writing that out, but I'd propose that the fact that it does sound outlandish is the main problem. That doesn't sound outlandish to me at all. For what it's worth, it doesn't have to phrased in a stilted manner like that. A quiet "That was racist and I have no excuse. I am sorry, and will do better in the future." is fine. I suspect that most people who want to "get the hell…

I think this follows a general rule I have found in my professional life.... people react WAY more forgiving when you admit a fuckup than you think they will before you admit it. It is amazing how quickly people want to forgive you and help when you admit failure openly and without excuse.

Exactly this. I have a coworker who I used to like personally, even though I had a lot of problems with his actual work. But, he would never own up to making any mistakes, and now no one likes him personally or professionally.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#129

Post by zo1 »

JPKab wrote: post #92
chongli wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the trouble here is the double meaning of the word racist. When some people hear the word, they think of cross-burning fanatics and mass murderers. On the other hand, the current big conversation is about how everyone is racist and that society is rife with systemic racism. That creates a catch-22 for anyone who commits a faux-pas (like mistaking the black CEO for a subordinate). Either admit to racism and ca…

" I honestly don't know what to do about it though." That's a major criticism I have of the crusaders against "systemic racism." While I think the term is intended to capture the accumulated, "death by a thousand cuts" set of disadvantages that are faced by marginalized groups, it characterizes the problem in such a way that it makes it seem intractable. This is a perfect framing for politicians and activists, whose…

Now that you mention it, it reminds me of another big "movement" that has a very nebulous problem statement with no clear instances of the problem to solve: Climate Change. Well, at least no problems + solution combinations that people are willing to do.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#130

Post by [deleted] »

commoner wrote: post #117
_8j50 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is stereotyping but not neccesarily racism. I've made the same mistake at a car shop, I thought the small lady on my side of the counter was a customer, i ignored her and talked to the guy behind the counter, but turns out she was the boss+worker and the guy was helping out. I did feel embarrassed, but I know it's not because I think less of women, you just don't see women in those roles a lot. Maybe associative g…

Your example would be a case of sexism (sexual stereotyping), not racism (racial stereotyping). It may have been unintentional, but it was still sexism. In this type of situation, the empathetic resolution would be to apologize for causing the victim's embarrassment, which most likely exceeds your own.

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