Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year • Hacker News Board

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#481

Post by pks016 » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 9:04 PM UTC

ylem wrote: post #194

akyu wrote: post #115

I have a hard time understanding the logic here. GPAs are essentially useless, so what else do we have to go off of? "Hollistic admissions" processes seem to be even more skewed towards rich kids, as they have far greater opportunities outside of the class room to pad their resumes in exactly the way that colleges look for. This seems entirely backwards to me. If there is a systemic bias in test scores, it is still b…

Dumb question, but are GPAs useless? I mean a plot of say high school GPA vs say college graduation rate or college GPA would be rather informative.

My viewpoint: GPAs are not useless. They are a good prediction of studying, learning and seriousness in those. But definitely not entirely predictive. May be less weightage to overall GPAs and more to final year GPAs(considering difficulty of courses).

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#482

Post by aiisahik » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 9:07 PM UTC

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #302

aiisahik wrote: post #242

As an Asian who went to an Ivy, I welcome this change. Yes, it will mask a policy of keeping the proportion of Asians lower than a race neutral policy. Yes, it's racially discriminatory. Yes, it's somewhat unfair to Asians who are trying to get in. But no, being fair isn't the point of these schools. Nor is having the most academically excellent student population. If you want that, go to Berkeley or CalTech. The poi…

The problem with laying bare this purpose of these institutions is it destroys their credibility. If everyone knows it's just a social club, and that is formalized, it loses its prestige. It's beneficial to students who are enrolled due to family gifts that some students are enrolled due to being truly academically skilled. It furthers the impression the gift-giving segment may be skilled as well.

Again, it's the prestige of the social club that gives them credibility - not the academic excellence of its students. The students who have mediocre grades but very rich parents actually might actually have a better chance at success and bring more prestige to the university than the academically excellent student who have poor parents.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#483

Post by tcgv » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 9:11 PM UTC

iagovar wrote: post #243

mrfredward wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A very cynical answer to what's the logic here: objective measures get in the way of many non-academic college admission goals, so colleges want to do away with them. One of those goals is racial diversity, and that's the only one colleges openly talk about because it's the only one that can positively impact society. Other goals include raising more money by admitting the children of major donors, improving the pres…

That sounds bad if you're a white non-rich kid.

That's a valid point, and a though one. But without affirmative action policies we may never be able to change the status quo and promote social inclusion. The challenge is making sure these actions don't create new social gaps.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#484

Post by devmunchies » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 9:14 PM UTC

malandrew wrote: post #479

bradlys wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd have a stronger argument if that 5% was still "only 5%" of the colleges. But, it's closer to 15-30% of the student body. That's true at most top colleges across the country AFAIK. When you're getting close to 5-6x the national rate and nearly a third of the university, it's gotta be worth noting, right? No different than any other demographic - I'd hope. I'm for fair admissions and I'd hope race would not be a…

> When you're getting close to 5-6x the national rate and nearly a third of the university, it's gotta be worth noting, right? It's worth noting and emulating. Punishing success is the path to mediocrity. Instead other groups should take note and ask themselves "what should our community be doing so that we can also emulate the success that that group has had?" Any solution that doesn't involve trying to trying to ge…

It could be said that their adversity is because they are so good at “helping one another succeed.” Success breeds resentment.

Although, I agree. I just want all cultures to thrive. However, Whites doing this would be called out for nepotism and labeled supremacists in their own countries. You don’t see this reaction in Japan, Israel, Mexico, etc.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#485

Post by aiisahik » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 9:15 PM UTC

quadrifoliate wrote: post #394

magicsmoke wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, Asians need to learn how to play the race politics card. All those white politicians didn't get into the white house because they had good grades, but because they knew how to play to the crowd. In a democratic society, if you don't know how to get others to like you you'll always be screwed by someone who does. Remember, the employee that gets promoted isn't the one that works the hardest, but the one that thei…

I think Asians also need to push back a little against the "there are too many Asians in tech" viewpoint. We face a considerable amount of racism and underpromotion (especially into management roles), but there is rarely any activism that's directed towards resolving these problems. A lot of initiatives I have seen in tech explicitly exclude Asians, so I'm wondering if there's initiatives directed at us.

Which kind of Asians are being under-promoted?

Satya, Sundar, Arvind?

Only East Asians are underpromoted. As and East Asian myself, I believe

(1) You should read this article and study: https://www.economist.com/business/2020/02/29/indian-v-chine...

(2) there are plenty of Asians in tech. The real under presentation is in sports and entertainment. Yet no asian parents are lamenting that their kids didn't get an audition are they?

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#486

Post by SeanAppleby » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 9:24 PM UTC

Spivak wrote: post #209

mrfredward wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A very cynical answer to what's the logic here: objective measures get in the way of many non-academic college admission goals, so colleges want to do away with them. One of those goals is racial diversity, and that's the only one colleges openly talk about because it's the only one that can positively impact society. Other goals include raising more money by admitting the children of major donors, improving the pres…

I think there’s a silver lining to all of this behavior in that it demonstrates that nothing really matters when it comes to determining if you’ll be successful in college. Test scores don’t prove much except who had the resources, time, and motivation to study the most. You could replace the SAT and ACT with obscure movie trivia and you’d see roughly the same distribution of scores and it would have the same predict…

My understanding is that SAT scores are significantly correlated with wealth (resources, time, externally imposed motivation), but not by as much as other admissions criteria, and that equity in educational attainment dramatically improved after standardized tests were introduced.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#487

Post by grumple » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

cambalache wrote: post #353

grumple wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that person will still get into a great school. It just doesn’t have to be Harvard.

You can say exactly the same to the candidates who jumped above her not by academic merit but by other nebulous criteria.

When have these schools ever said they care only about academic merit? They explicitly don’t and never have; every high school has a counselor that will tell you that you need to have more on your application than grades and a test score.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#488

Post by aiisahik » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 9:36 PM UTC

quadrifoliate wrote: post #392

aiisahik wrote: post #242

As an Asian who went to an Ivy, I welcome this change. Yes, it will mask a policy of keeping the proportion of Asians lower than a race neutral policy. Yes, it's racially discriminatory. Yes, it's somewhat unfair to Asians who are trying to get in. But no, being fair isn't the point of these schools. Nor is having the most academically excellent student population. If you want that, go to Berkeley or CalTech. The poi…

As another Asian who kind of understands your viewpoint, I'm conflicted and unsure about this. Us Asians are in a weird place, because as a statistic we're very successful, but also subject to a fairly wide range of discrimination inside and outside the workplace. We already a harder time breaking into "Good Old Boy" all-white institutions, and I have lost count of the number of casually racist anti-Asian things I ha…

Sorry you encountered racism. That sucks and hope you work with better people in the future. As someone who lives in the US but was raised in Australia, I have to say that I've encountered a lot more ignorance in the US but a lot less racism. I think it's getter better but probably not quickly enough.

> So why should Asians be denied the opportunity to prove that that heuristic is imperfect?

HAHA only Asians and rich white legacy parents would consider a rejection by Harvard to be a denial of opportunity worth complaining about. Harvard IS special BECAUSE of the name. Because it lends an air of prestige, legacy, and class that CANNOT be obtained by merely academic excellence. But just because it is special does not mean it has to provide an equal opportunity to all to obtain it by a transparent set of criteria. The frustratingly opaque unobtainability of the admissions to ivy is EXACTLY what gives it prestige and the exact reason why it cannot allow a fair academic process to determine admission.

> Otherwise, Harvard will used as a filter that implicitly discriminates against Asians later in life. Think ”Oh he's from Harvard, good thing it's not one of those all-Asian colleges” which I'm sure is said behind closed doors in many rooms today and which you have perhaps benefited from.

I went to Berkeley for grad school. Now I am a CTO at a company looking at resumes. I would hire a Berkeley grad over an ivy grad ANY day because I know how competitive and difficult the STEM programs at Berkeley are. The implicit presumption of superiority of an ivy degree over a Cal degree comes more from the mentality of the student body and the parents more so than from the employers. And with that I will venture to point out the ironic fact that Asians complaining about unfairness of Harvard admissions actually further highlights the fact that Harvard is more unattainable and thus desirable than other schools. The only thing that would really hurt Harvard is if Asians just said: "oh we don't want to get into those racist colleges anyway" .... but that would never happen :P

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#489

Post by aiisahik » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 9:37 PM UTC

malandrew wrote: post #433

aiisahik wrote: post #242

As an Asian who went to an Ivy, I welcome this change. Yes, it will mask a policy of keeping the proportion of Asians lower than a race neutral policy. Yes, it's racially discriminatory. Yes, it's somewhat unfair to Asians who are trying to get in. But no, being fair isn't the point of these schools. Nor is having the most academically excellent student population. If you want that, go to Berkeley or CalTech. The poi…

Given my recent experience with quite a few graduates from all three schools you mentioned, I'll take a Berkeley or CalTech graduate over one from Harvard all else being equal. This would not have been the case 10 years ago, but in my observation the quality of the rigor of thinking from undergraduates coming from Harvard has slipped dramatically relative to these two other schools, especially as the most recent vint…

100% agree.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#490

Post by aiisahik » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 9:39 PM UTC

user982 wrote: post #287

aiisahik wrote: post #242

As an Asian who went to an Ivy, I welcome this change. Yes, it will mask a policy of keeping the proportion of Asians lower than a race neutral policy. Yes, it's racially discriminatory. Yes, it's somewhat unfair to Asians who are trying to get in. But no, being fair isn't the point of these schools. Nor is having the most academically excellent student population. If you want that, go to Berkeley or CalTech. The poi…

> I wouldn't want to go to a college that is 50% Asian and 1% black over a college that reflected the demographics of the country. Did the Ivy you went to reflect the demographics of the country better than all other colleges?

Better than Berkeley or UCLA? Yup. I had a black roommate. Coming from Australia I had never met a black person in my entire life. I spent christmases with his family. You think I would have gotten that experience at Berkeley?