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Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

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Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#471

Post by affyboi »

defen wrote: post #341
macspoofing wrote: post #327

That's not really a good thing. What they are doing is changing a known transparent standard for entry to something completely arbitrary, ad hoc, and opaque from the point of view of the applicant. Also, the applicant pool will rise because there is no SAT filter. Having said that, I don't think it's a big deal because nobody needs to go to Harvard. In fact, if you aren't affluent enough to afford Harvard tuition, or…

Harvard doesn't offer academic scholarships. If you can't afford Harvard tuition it's free - e.g. if your parents make less than 65,000 (20% of Harvard students) you don't pay anything. So yes, it's actually massively worth it if you can get in, because you graduate with no debt and have a name-brand diploma and access to an extremely well-connected group of people. It's the kids who go to second- and third-tier inst…

Most of the Ivies are pretty generous when it comes to financial aid

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#472

Post by csa »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #465
csa wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are greatly mistaken, although it does depend on the quality of the preparation. I have seen scores improve 100-200 points per skill on average for middle range scores, and 50-100 points per skill for higher range scores with quality preparation. Reasons: - familiarity with test format - improved test taking strategies - familiarity with test content - developing the mental stamina to perform at a high level thro…

Why do you exclude learning the material as a reason? My test prep was largely a matter of learning material that I missed or wasn't taught effectively during school.

I would group that under familiarity with test content. Maybe an opaque label on my part.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#473

Post by affyboi »

learc83 wrote: post #179
WalterBright wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The SAT has always generally been a test showing how well you prepared for the SAT. I've heard that claim a lot, but never accompanied by evidence. Nobody I knew prepped for the SAT, and many got into top schools. Unless you count paying attention in math class, and reading adult level books "prepping".

That was a while ago though as you've stated elsewhere. The percentage of kids who score perfect or near perfect scores has gone up dramatically over the last 20 years. https://www.compassprep.com/great-to-good-the-diluted-value-... My scores where good enough to get in almost anywhere in the 2000s, but they're barley above the 50th percentile at our flagship state university now. It's unlikely that the average intel…

There's a whole industry that also got built around test prep, and it's pretty lucrative. the tutor that my friends and I had was really expensive, and she consistently had kids that were scoring near perfect on the SAT and ACT.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#474

Post by thaumasiotes »

Spivak wrote: post #347
thaumasiotes wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The secret of being an honors kid isn’t aptitude but being told that you’re smart and your parents/peers expecting it of you. How much teaching experience do you have? I'm including any time you tried to convey a skill to any other person.

Sure! I tutored the majority of my classmates in Calc and Physics and I did not find one person I believed couldn’t do it. I did find a lot of people who believed they couldn’t do it, weren’t good at math, and wanted to give up though. Some of the main problems: * A lot more people than you would expect have attention issues and just needed someone to give them one-on-one attention. They would get distracted in class…

Replying separately to the tutoring anecdotes, you reminded me of someone I tutored who was having trouble learning the chain rule. He got it after going through (with supervision) a single example I assigned - calculate the derivative of sin(sin(sin(sin(sin(x))))). At which point he rather angrily exclaimed "why isn't that example in the book?!"

I'm not quite sure what the connection is, but the combination of

> Easiest tutoring sessions ever when they just needed some quiet space to read.

> A lot of people struggled because HS has so little focus on rote memorization.

brought it back.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#475

Post by honkycat »

throwaway287391 wrote: post #385
honkycat wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pure conjecture. The younger generation currently consumes way less alcohol and is overall much more studious and serious than previous generations. Years of austerity have eroded the "animal house" culture you are picturing from your youth. They are pushing college WAY less and pushing vocational training WAY MORE. I've had my younger cousins reach out to me interested in vocational training and my opinions…

Interesting. Thanks for making an actual counter-argument. I have to admit I have a little trouble believing the cultural connotations around college could have changed that much in the time since I graduated from HS (2007), but I'll take your word for it -- I don't have any current connections to kids that age myself.

I graduated around the same time. We got burned BADLY and I think people started paying attention around that time.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#476

Post by malandrew »

neilparikh wrote: post #428
wait_a_minute wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who cares about those? Definitely not the new American left.

Is your claim that the "American Left" has decided to sacrifice the poor whites to help other races? If it is, it's not really an accurate claim. It's poor Asians who've taken the largest brunt of affirmative action, while Whites have remained relatively neutral in their standing.

It's probably both groups, asians and poor and middle class whites. If the winning narrative is racial diversity by proportion of population, you now find yourself largely in competition with people of your own race for one of the coveted spots, which means that the smart tactic is to find a way to exclude a subset of your own racial group that you're not part of so you have less competition.

Liberals making conservatives personas non-grata means they have half as many people to compete with for a coveted spot at the top of the pyramid of power.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#477

Post by csa »

yasp wrote: post #410
csa wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are greatly mistaken, although it does depend on the quality of the preparation. I have seen scores improve 100-200 points per skill on average for middle range scores, and 50-100 points per skill for higher range scores with quality preparation. Reasons: - familiarity with test format - improved test taking strategies - familiarity with test content - developing the mental stamina to perform at a high level thro…

Is this just personal anecdata?

An acquaintance of mine runs a high end SAT training program. He gets these results reliably for folks who have had little or no preparation before coming to him. Trained test takes is in the hundreds (maybe more).

Is this data or anecdata? You be the judge. He finds it easy to bank on professionally.

I encourage you to talk to someone who has worked at a high-end SAT training program (not Kaplan or that type). They can tell you the real deal, both successes and failures. Don’t rely on talking to the businesses themselves, because they will be selling their services rather than telling the complete truth (unless you know them personally).

Fwiw, failures are usually due to one of a few factors:

1. anxiety

2. learning blocks

3. physical issues (e.g., lack of sleep, sick, etc.).

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#478

Post by malandrew »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #331
wait_a_minute wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The new American left does treat it as a zero sum game. That is why they focus on disparities instead of universal programs that would eliminate the largest absolute amounts of poverty and suffering.

There isn't one American Left. The liberals do as you often say. The socialists often focus precisely on "universal programs that would eliminate the largest absolute amounts of poverty and suffering."

universal programs only eliminate the largest amounts of poverty and suffering if they are self sustaining long term. Any universal program that undermines the work that funds the universal programs in the first places is a threat to sustainability. The Soviet Union, Cuba, Venezuela and China under Mao are all examples of places that went with universal programs and policies that ultimately undermined the revenue streams supporting those programs.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#479

Post by malandrew »

bradlys wrote: post #466
dartdartdart wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti-asian for sure, probably not as much anti-white since white applicants can get lower academic scores than Asian people and still get accepted. Discriminating against a minority that makes up only 5% of the population is ridiculous.

You'd have a stronger argument if that 5% was still "only 5%" of the colleges. But, it's closer to 15-30% of the student body. That's true at most top colleges across the country AFAIK. When you're getting close to 5-6x the national rate and nearly a third of the university, it's gotta be worth noting, right? No different than any other demographic - I'd hope. I'm for fair admissions and I'd hope race would not be a…

> When you're getting close to 5-6x the national rate and nearly a third of the university, it's gotta be worth noting, right?

It's worth noting and emulating. Punishing success is the path to mediocrity. Instead other groups should take note and ask themselves "what should our community be doing so that we can also emulate the success that that group has had?"

Any solution that doesn't involve trying to trying to get every group to emulate the success of the groups doing it right will eventually lower standards.

There is a soft bigotry in low expectations.

https://1776unites.com/featured-essays/the-1619-project-perp...

I'm not Jewish, but I have nothing but profound respect for that community because they have such great values that they are consistently crushing it and helping one another succeed. Just take the absolute atrocity many of them suffered in WWII and yet 75 years later, many of those that had everything stripped from them have succeeded better than probably any other community would have given the same adversity.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#480

Post by WalterBright »

affyboi wrote: post #473
learc83 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was a while ago though as you've stated elsewhere. The percentage of kids who score perfect or near perfect scores has gone up dramatically over the last 20 years. https://www.compassprep.com/great-to-good-the-diluted-value-... My scores where good enough to get in almost anywhere in the 2000s, but they're barley above the 50th percentile at our flagship state university now. It's unlikely that the average intel…

There's a whole industry that also got built around test prep, and it's pretty lucrative. the tutor that my friends and I had was really expensive, and she consistently had kids that were scoring near perfect on the SAT and ACT.

Be careful about inferring that any gaming taught by the tutor made the difference. If the tutor was simply teaching the math needed, that would be fine.

The math needed to ace the SAT is taught in high school. If you slide by on that, you'll probably need a math tutor to make up for it. Or you can choose to learn the math presented in high school.

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