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Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

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Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#461

Post by WalterBright »

AlchemistCamp wrote: post #192
WalterBright wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with the idea that one can "optimize" for the GRE without knowing anything relevant to the field the GRE is in. I did not optimize for the GRE, I did not prep for it, I did not look at a study guide for it, I simply went and took the test cold. The questions were on material one would expect to cover in basic engineering and science courses. I don't buy the notion that anyone who does well on the GRE is…

Which subject test was it that you took?

Engineering

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#462

Post by whotheffknows »

amvalo wrote: post #458
whotheffknows wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've obviously never been to a private boarding school where tuition is $40k/year in highschool and in addition to this their parents paid for $5000 classes where the teachers helped them create calculator programs on SAT approved calculators to help solve problems faster and do timed exam grades. I grew up on welfare until middle school years, made straight A's in a poorly ranked public school applied to every boa…

Talking about the Oarsman-regatta thing? That was 2 decades ago...

No.

https://www.clearchoiceprep.com/sat-act-prep-blog/the-most-i...

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#463

Post by WalterBright »

strgcmc wrote: post #185
WalterBright wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with the idea that one can "optimize" for the GRE without knowing anything relevant to the field the GRE is in. I did not optimize for the GRE, I did not prep for it, I did not look at a study guide for it, I simply went and took the test cold. The questions were on material one would expect to cover in basic engineering and science courses. I don't buy the notion that anyone who does well on the GRE is…

But you are kind of proving the point with your example... you are in the minority, and most people do not take it "cold". If everyone took it cold, then what you said makes more sense. But most people, unlike you, are trying to game the system for a higher score, through extensive prep work and additional test-specific training (else, why would there be so many test prep books and courses and tutors out there?). The…

> why would there be so many test prep books and courses and tutors out there?

People are always looking for an edge, and entrepreneurs are always going to be trying to sell them one, whether it works or not. (Look at all the diet books out there, it's a billion dollar industry.)

> idealized view of a fair system that simply doesn't exist.

I'm not suggesting it is ideal or perfectly fair. I'm suggesting it isn't nearly as irrelevant as many argue.

For those who want to prep or game the system, why not do it right? Take the math classes, and actually learn math.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#464

Post by thelean12 »

macspoofing wrote: post #456
thelean12 wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn't have such strong opinions on things when you aren't willing to do even the most basic research.

I didn't make any strong arguments. Look back at see. All I argued was the following: 1) Harvard is not necessary for quality education (true) 2) Harvard is a great school and great a degree (true) 3) If you need to go into debt to pay for Harvard tuition, the Harvard degree isn't worth it, but if you can get it paid for (by whatever means) you should do it! (true) Which part do you disagree with?

A big part of your argument relies on the cost of a Harvard education. This was completely dismantled at least 3 times that I see in this thread.

At some point you should have stepped back and said to yourself "maybe I don't know enough about Harvard to voice my opinion on it".

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#465

Post by hackinthebochs »

csa wrote: post #354
yasp wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Test scores don’t prove much except who had the resources, time, and motivation to study the most. I was under the impression that SAT prep doesn't move the needle much. Am I mistaken?

You are greatly mistaken, although it does depend on the quality of the preparation. I have seen scores improve 100-200 points per skill on average for middle range scores, and 50-100 points per skill for higher range scores with quality preparation. Reasons: - familiarity with test format - improved test taking strategies - familiarity with test content - developing the mental stamina to perform at a high level thro…

Why do you exclude learning the material as a reason? My test prep was largely a matter of learning material that I missed or wasn't taught effectively during school.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#466

Post by bradlys »

dartdartdart wrote: post #448
devmunchies wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but not anymore. There is a higher jewish population at harvard (~28%) than non-jewish whites (~22%) despite non-jewish whites making up 60% of the population of the US and jews making up less than 2% of the population. No skin off my nose since I went to a mormon school in Utah. There is clearly an anti-white, anti-asian agenda at these top schools now.

Anti-asian for sure, probably not as much anti-white since white applicants can get lower academic scores than Asian people and still get accepted. Discriminating against a minority that makes up only 5% of the population is ridiculous.

You'd have a stronger argument if that 5% was still "only 5%" of the colleges. But, it's closer to 15-30% of the student body. That's true at most top colleges across the country AFAIK. When you're getting close to 5-6x the national rate and nearly a third of the university, it's gotta be worth noting, right? No different than any other demographic - I'd hope.

I'm for fair admissions and I'd hope race would not be a factor in admissions - only personal experiences/circumstance. Something that would level the floor a bit more to allow for people of less privileged backgrounds to shine and allow for real diversity of thought into the university environment. That said, it won't likely ever happen. My experience of a school with a 30% Asian student body was not great for many reasons but one reason was how hard it was to make friends. I did not make almost any Asian friends because most of the Asian student body was a very insular group of people. I spoke about this with Asian coworkers/peers who outwardly acknowledged it at the university. Now, I work with Asian coworkers who openly express their interest in being with Asians more than other races. I don't know if that same mentality is as abundant across other groups but imagine going to a school where 30% of the class refuses to interact with you. It does not make for a great student body.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#467

Post by [deleted] »

aiisahik wrote: post #242

As an Asian who went to an Ivy, I welcome this change. Yes, it will mask a policy of keeping the proportion of Asians lower than a race neutral policy. Yes, it's racially discriminatory. Yes, it's somewhat unfair to Asians who are trying to get in. But no, being fair isn't the point of these schools. Nor is having the most academically excellent student population. If you want that, go to Berkeley or CalTech. The poi…

[deleted]

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#468

Post by iagovar »

mFixman wrote: post #277
akyu wrote: post #115

I have a hard time understanding the logic here. GPAs are essentially useless, so what else do we have to go off of? "Hollistic admissions" processes seem to be even more skewed towards rich kids, as they have far greater opportunities outside of the class room to pad their resumes in exactly the way that colleges look for. This seems entirely backwards to me. If there is a systemic bias in test scores, it is still b…

My Latin American State university had a nice solution: a 1 year long introductory course open to everyone which you had to pass to formally enter the university, similar to a centrally-administered course on SAT exams. The system ticked most boxes: poor students had a lot more resources to study and pass the exams, and the evaluation was very correlated to how well you would do in the University compared to doing th…

Which country?, it sounds like a good idea.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#469

Post by knolax »

js2 wrote: post #217
pcurve wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I have a very average girl in my town who got admitted to grad school at Harvard only because her dad is a law professor at Harvard." I'm not saying Harvard isn't corrupt, but admitting professor's kid isn't really the best indicator of corruption. It's nothing unusual in many schools and they don't hide it.

I can understand the employment perk of making tuition free for employees' kids, but I'm less sure about reserving a slot. If I can make an analogy: as an employee of Verizon, I get a 50% discount on service, but when a new iPhone comes out, I'm not allowed to purchase it until after it's widely available. I would think the child of a college professor likely already has an academic leg up on your average kid. Those…

I think a better analogy would be like a world class chef not wanting to feed their kids McDonald's.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#470

Post by thaumasiotes »

Spivak wrote: post #453
thaumasiotes wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your calculus and physics classmates are not a representative sample of people.

Sure, but I don't have any prior belief that my classmates -- kids around my age in my area which was lower-middle to upper-middle class depending on the neighborhood at a middling school -- skewed more proficient in math than the general population. Of course it's not representative but I find it hard to believe that some no name school happened to be where the math nerds all hung out.

The population of students taking calculus in high school is already skewed more proficient than the general population just by that fact. (Obviously, the causality runs in the other direction, but the skew is there.)
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