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They Write the Right Stuff (1996)

fastcompany.com

21–30 of 33 posts

Re: They Write the Right Stuff (1996)

#21
post #10

> How do they write the right stuff? The article claims that it is their process, and although they are certainly extremely thorough, I don't buy it. At the very least, they cannot be compared to most developers apples to apples. Why? > NASA and the Lockheed Martin group agree in the most minute detail about everything the new code is supposed to do — and they commit that understanding to paper, with the kind of spec…

This seems incredibly short sighted. To wit, the fact that Keller - or whoever is in that role these days - has to certify that the code and the system it runs on will work as expected speaks volumes about how serious this is. If it doesn't, things tend to blow up, which is sure to ruin your day. Also, I would be remiss if I didn't mention Therac-25, a medical device which killed or severely injured several patients.…

Your response suggests you misunderstand the point I was making. I completely agree with you that there are certain niches which require extreme precision for safety purposes like that which is being discussed in the article as well as your medical device example. What irritated me about the article is that it was comparing these niche fields which have completely different requirements and incentive structures to the software industry in general as if that was somehow a reasonable thing to do. Suggesting that the software field in general is somehow juvenile while failing to consider the vastly different incentive structures that exist for developers, managers, etc. in most fields, which necessarily have a drastically higher tolerance for error, is patently ridiculous.

Re: They Write the Right Stuff (1996)

#22
post #10

> How do they write the right stuff? The article claims that it is their process, and although they are certainly extremely thorough, I don't buy it. At the very least, they cannot be compared to most developers apples to apples. Why? > NASA and the Lockheed Martin group agree in the most minute detail about everything the new code is supposed to do — and they commit that understanding to paper, with the kind of spec…

There's great research about zero defect software, and my favorite is a weird grey textbook by Capers Jones called "The Economics of Software Quality"

In it you'll find that this level of requirements gathering, blueprint/spec writing and code inspection are actually cheaper in a relatively short time (months, not years).

Writing specifications that are extremely detailed ends up giving you all the logical failures ahead of time, and makes typing code more of a spell checking exercise. By having the logical failures before the code ever runs, you get to debug & fix them before any code runs. This ends up being faster & cheaper in total than waiting for users to find bugs.

However - I understand that for many companies they actually don't care if users find bugs as time to market is more expensive than the future bug finding. But if you have a product already in the market, and you expect to support it for ~year, you probably can do much more detailed design and avoid so much pain.

Re: They Write the Right Stuff (1996)

#23
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems incredibly short sighted. To wit, the fact that Keller - or whoever is in that role these days - has to certify that the code and the system it runs on will work as expected speaks volumes about how serious this is. If it doesn't, things tend to blow up, which is sure to ruin your day. Also, I would be remiss if I didn't mention Therac-25, a medical device which killed or severely injured several patients.…

Your response suggests you misunderstand the point I was making. I completely agree with you that there are certain niches which require extreme precision for safety purposes like that which is being discussed in the article as well as your medical device example. What irritated me about the article is that it was comparing these niche fields which have completely different requirements and incentive structures to th…

Eh, the article is in FastCompany. The target audience may not be familiar with common software development practices. They contrasted the shuttle group process with normal processes and pointed out its hefty price tag & why the government prioritizes quality over speed and cost. Aside from an interesting article on the space program and process improvement, it was also useful for Joe CEO that regularly complains that, let's see 1996... Windows 95 gets it's IRQs screwed up every time he adds a printer or sound card, etc. "I paid for this software, why doesn't it work?"

Re: They Write the Right Stuff (1996)

#24
One of the most influential and interesting articles to me that I share with all the developers with whom I think I can have an interesting conversation (and it influences some quite a lot)!

I remember there were some comments: > Are you prepared to pay 10x for a text editor, say? My answer: Hell yeah, if I am earning thousands using this editor, why not pay couple hundred bucks for a really well-made program with good support, etc.

But as I understand, there exists no demand for this type of thing among general users. People are ready to pay for tons of useless features being added (just to signal that the project is progressing) but not ready to pay for simpler solutions that are really focused on quality, security and consistent performance.

Re: They Write the Right Stuff (1996)

#25
You can definitely increase correctness of the final product with more and more up front specs.

There's an understanding/level-of-detail hurdle that I've run into a lot: people have a desire to over-pseudocode and under-specify in usual design decisions. If you really want to get a good spec that will result in both good estimates and avoid surprises in terms of "whoops, this won't work actually" then you need to get really detailed here.

There's also a business one. Most businesses don't have quite as exact requirements as "fly to this point in space" or such. And often, the requirements iterate with user feedback. Or you try five things and see which users like the most. So the extra time delays really add up, when there's already a bunch of stuff going on behind the scenes than just the final feature that launches to the general public. If you're in this discovery phase, perfect is the enemy of "learning," and learning is what you need.

Re: They Write the Right Stuff (1996)

#26
The article is from 1996. And the experts then describe the then software industry as "hunter and gatherers".

I am not sure where we are now, was OOP the dark middle age or the industrial revolution? Or will that AI be?

Would be really interested in your opinions!

Re: They Write the Right Stuff (1996)

#27
Posted dozens of times, but with surprisingly few comments.

Single-comment threads:

2007 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=51098 (note how the title already says "old")

2009 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=498219

2012 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3891669

2016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12014248

2018 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17164407

Slightly larger:

2008 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=132640

2014 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7121140

2015 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9263725

2017 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13660013

Re: They Write the Right Stuff (1996)

#28
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems incredibly short sighted. To wit, the fact that Keller - or whoever is in that role these days - has to certify that the code and the system it runs on will work as expected speaks volumes about how serious this is. If it doesn't, things tend to blow up, which is sure to ruin your day. Also, I would be remiss if I didn't mention Therac-25, a medical device which killed or severely injured several patients.…

Your response suggests you misunderstand the point I was making. I completely agree with you that there are certain niches which require extreme precision for safety purposes like that which is being discussed in the article as well as your medical device example. What irritated me about the article is that it was comparing these niche fields which have completely different requirements and incentive structures to th…

While I don't entirely 'pay for my shoes' developing software - mostly client side web stuff - it's a part of what I do and I can understand the frustration that other parts of the field seem to have when looking at situations like this.

Namely, we're at a point where agile practices have become so common that nothing is ever 'done' and it is acceptable to ship something with errors, assuming it can and will be patched later.

Both Mom & Dad started out as COBOL programmers on punchcards, and I've heard plenty of 'war stories' about how these kinds of situations were far less common because an error meant your program simply didn't run.

Unlike say a web browser which will mostly spit back out whatever weird HTML and CSS you feed into it, errors and all.

In consumer software, it's not, 'we follow orders or people die' but for people working on this, it probably feels that way if your stuff is used by enough people (iOS) or is critically important (medical billing).

If it doesn't do what it says on the tin, people are incredibly unforgiving of even the smallest mistakes.

Re: They Write the Right Stuff (1996)

#29
post #10

> How do they write the right stuff? The article claims that it is their process, and although they are certainly extremely thorough, I don't buy it. At the very least, they cannot be compared to most developers apples to apples. Why? > NASA and the Lockheed Martin group agree in the most minute detail about everything the new code is supposed to do — and they commit that understanding to paper, with the kind of spec…

> Incompetency as far as specifications go

Building complex software is a learning process, and you'll find that what was specified wasn't practical, you'll find better ways to do things, etc.

Re: They Write the Right Stuff (1996)

#30

The article is from 1996. And the experts then describe the then software industry as "hunter and gatherers". I am not sure where we are now, was OOP the dark middle age or the industrial revolution? Or will that AI be? Would be really interested in your opinions!

I started college in 1997 so can give some insights of what it was like in the late 90s

- Unless you were a larger firm or project, version control was something you never even heard of

- A lot of the internet was still being put together

- Perl was a big deal and a LOT of it was bad e.g. "use strict" was almost never used so you could use variables willy nilly

- The Joel Test was yet to be written (5 years out roughly) and people were scoring low on the test then

- The only exposure to Linux was generally when you were in college unless you were hardcore. Otherwise, everything was windows. E.g. I remember installing Slackware from a CD that came with a giant book and then thinking: "What do I do now?"

- Java was the new hotness and Rutgers (my school) was the first major university to offer it for there 101 (actually RU CS first class was 111 b/c 101 was "business computing").

- There was no Google, Stack Overflow etc. You were lucky if people like Jeremy Zawodny happened to write a blog post about the weird Perl + MySql bug you were running into and/or if your local book store had Databases for Dummies

It really is amazing to me now to see how MASSIVE frameworks for JavaScript come out every year and the whole ecosystem spasms. Perl CGI was the de facto way to write web stuff for almost a decade. In fact LAMP used to mean "Linux Apache Mysql Perl" until php came along and even then giant website were still written in Perl e.g. Amazon, IMDB etc

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