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Weizsäcker's speech on 40th anniversary of WW2's end (1985)

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Re: Weizsäcker's speech on 40th anniversary of WW2's end (1985)

#31
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the USSR undertook the greatest ethnic cleansing of the 20th century in response. Should they apologize for that?

The USSR ethnically cleansed Germany in response? What? Or do you mean something else? Had Nazi Germany prevailed, it is estimated about 30 million of all Slavs in Eastern Europe would have been cleansed, as per the stated goals of Generalplan Ost [1]. Getting rid of "undesirables" and "surplus population" on one of the widest scales mankind had ever seen was one of the main goals of Nazi expansion. They started to c…

> The USSR ethnically cleansed Germany in response? What?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_German...

In particular, postwar Poland basically moved west: the Soviet Union kept the 77.6 thousand square miles of Polish territory it had captured when both Germany and Russia partitioned it in 1939, while Poland was given 48.1 thousand miles of German territory. The Soviet-backed Polish government cleansed the formerly-German territories of ethnic Germans.

Given the far worse behaviour of Germany during the war (I believe most Germans survived the ethnic cleansing committed by Poland, while the goal of Nazi Germany was extermination of the Poles), it can be a bit difficult to care about the suffering of Germans. But consider that IIRC roughly two million Germans died in the expulsions from Poland and other countries, and no doubt at least a few of those were innocent women and children (as, of course, were many of Nazi Germany's victims). Two wrongs do not make a right, and mass murder of innocent civilians is always wrong.

Re: Weizsäcker's speech on 40th anniversary of WW2's end (1985)

#32

Since we're on the topic of Germany WWII. I read a couple books about Treblinka over the weekend. The atrocities that happened there were sickening. To read about what these people were forced to do there in this death camp is painful. The Germans and Ukrainians who did these horrific acts of murder and torture were unaffected by it, as told by two authors who survived. It leaves me with more questions than answers.…

A few years back we did a tour of Auschwitz - the excellent Polish guide gave us his personal view that there is nothing about Germans that made them prone to such acts and that many countries to this day routinely plan for far greater acts of slaughter and somehow we think this is normal.

Re: Weizsäcker's speech on 40th anniversary of WW2's end (1985)

#33
post #24

I couldn’t read the whole thing, but as a Jew whose relatives and culture was murdered by the Germans, I found it did not adequately address the reality that many Germans knew about the camps (to say nothing of the progroms and humiliations that preceded them) and that the people who perpetrated the Holocaust were in large part incorporated unreformed into German society after the war. The speech reads > Yet with eve…

That's interesting, and I can certainly see your point.

But back then the speech was considered to be brave, not preaching to the choir.

Throughout the sixties and seventies Germans had a tendency to paint themselves the victims. Maybe not as much as the Jews, but still, the Allied Occupation was so terrible, Red Armists raping every woman, woe be us.

Weizsäcker drew lots of criticism for articulating the point that the Third Reich wasn't some pretty well-functioning state with just the little side-effect of mass murder. That the Allies shouldn't have been so harsh, why couldn't they just remove the concentration camps and let society go on?

He saw the Nazi rule as an imposition on the German people, not in way of exculpation, but as a way to accept the defeat and move on, trying to build a better world.

You're right that most Germans knew about the atrocities. Research is very clear on that point. But it wasn't really emotionally accepted, especially in conservative circles. That speech was one little turning point, as was Brandt's fall to his knees (tabloids labelled him a traitor, for something that seems obviously right now).

I suppose he could have been more direct. But I suspect he and his people had gauged the public sentiment very well. Say too much, and nobody cares about what you said. Say too little, and you're not doing anything. The speech had a huge impact, and I guess that proves it right, maybe not from an absolute ethical point of view, but from a political and contemporary point of view.

Re: Weizsäcker's speech on 40th anniversary of WW2's end (1985)

#34
post #31
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USSR ethnically cleansed Germany in response? What? Or do you mean something else? Had Nazi Germany prevailed, it is estimated about 30 million of all Slavs in Eastern Europe would have been cleansed, as per the stated goals of Generalplan Ost [1]. Getting rid of "undesirables" and "surplus population" on one of the widest scales mankind had ever seen was one of the main goals of Nazi expansion. They started to c…

> The USSR ethnically cleansed Germany in response? What? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_German... In particular, postwar Poland basically moved west: the Soviet Union kept the 77.6 thousand square miles of Polish territory it had captured when both Germany and Russia partitioned it in 1939, while Poland was given 48.1 thousand miles of German territory. The Soviet-backed Polish government clea…

> Two wrongs do not make a right, and mass murder of innocent civilians is always wrong.

Fully agreed. It's hard to see the two events as similar, though. The scale (and intent) alone is mind-boggingly different. The Germans intended to wipe out Slavs (and other undesirables), and you couldn't opt out of this by swallowing the party line or swearing allegiance to Germany (just as you couldn't opt out of being a Jew -- Nazis didn't care about your religious beliefs, if any; they considered Jewishness a "race" to be exterminated). At best you could hope for their bullshit racial policies to deem you "Germanic", if you looked white enough and weren't Jewish.

Compare this with Germans under the Soviet sphere of influence. Puppets, maybe, but alive as long as they cooperated with the ruling ideology. There was no plan to ethnically cleanse them to make room for Soviet citizens in German land.

Re: Weizsäcker's speech on 40th anniversary of WW2's end (1985)

#35
Just a little background from a German perspective: Weizsäcker here is not the physicist but Richard von Weizsäcker, his brother.

Richard von Weizsäcker was President of Germany from mid 80s to mid 90s. The President of Germany is, simply put, like British Monarchy. In practice he has mostly a representative role. As a president Weizsäcker was well popular in Germany and neither was reclusive nor caused any scandals, which cannot be said about later presidents.

Re: Weizsäcker's speech on 40th anniversary of WW2's end (1985)

#36
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably a reference to immigration and how it (in their view) only benefited Capital owners.

Immigration is recent and secondary (but also a factor). The Euro and eastern expansion of the EU came first. The Euro was directly justified with historical references and allegedly a precondition for the German reunification. The Euro made companies rich and the population poor.

> The Euro made companies rich and the population poor.

In absolute terms, this is patently false.

In relative terms, the outcome may be true, but are you so sure that the euro is to blame?

Re: Weizsäcker's speech on 40th anniversary of WW2's end (1985)

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it taboo in Germany to suggest that increasing the supply of labour would drive down the price?

Yes. Anything that isn't praise and "we'll all be better off" is taboo, and it doesn't matter what party, what your other positions are, it's sacrilegious. It's not only immigration though, the same is true for e.g. European political integration. It's considered to be the only thing that keeps us from certain war, so any skepticism is understood as hyper nationalistic and willing to risk peace in Europe.

> Anything that isn't praise and "we'll all be better off" is taboo, and it doesn't matter what party, what your other positions are, it's sacrilegious.

Are you sure that you're not mixing up that position being wrong with it being taboo? It seems to have become very popular these days, especially among the alt right, to blame the ridicule and ignoring of their opinions on the "PC mainstream" having labelled them as taboo or "censoring" them. Projecting snowflakes like they've time and time been shown to be.

Re: Weizsäcker's speech on 40th anniversary of WW2's end (1985)

#38

Since we're on the topic of Germany WWII. I read a couple books about Treblinka over the weekend. The atrocities that happened there were sickening. To read about what these people were forced to do there in this death camp is painful. The Germans and Ukrainians who did these horrific acts of murder and torture were unaffected by it, as told by two authors who survived. It leaves me with more questions than answers.…

i don't know where you are from, but the education about the holocaust i received was especially memorable because it went through great detail explaining how the holocaust was different from the millenia of bloodshed and genocide that happened before. (European history is drowned in blood and suppresion sadly).

The holocaust is especially horrifying because it turned killing into an abstract process that made apathy the "silent killer" so to speak.

The holocaust was possible because step by step, the dehumanization and abstraction of the process resulted in people being able to be apathetic to it.

Re: Weizsäcker's speech on 40th anniversary of WW2's end (1985)

#39

Just a little background from a German perspective: Weizsäcker here is not the physicist but Richard von Weizsäcker, his brother. Richard von Weizsäcker was President of Germany from mid 80s to mid 90s. The President of Germany is, simply put, like British Monarchy. In practice he has mostly a representative role. As a president Weizsäcker was well popular in Germany and neither was reclusive nor caused any scandals,…

Except unlike the British Monarchy, one is not born into the position and cannot expect to gain the position purely by blood. The position itself may be largely ceremonial, but the holder of the post is recognised as an elder statesperson in their own right for their career prior to the presidency.

Re: Weizsäcker's speech on 40th anniversary of WW2's end (1985)

#40
post #24

I couldn’t read the whole thing, but as a Jew whose relatives and culture was murdered by the Germans, I found it did not adequately address the reality that many Germans knew about the camps (to say nothing of the progroms and humiliations that preceded them) and that the people who perpetrated the Holocaust were in large part incorporated unreformed into German society after the war. The speech reads > Yet with eve…

>It also seems to suggest that the German people couldn’t know what atrocities were being committed, which it was well known what was going on.

On this point, as someone whose grandparents lived through the German side of WW2, I am convinced it's allied propaganda used to justify the collective guilt of the German people.

I don't doubt it was well known to the Jewish population in America at the time, but any news of that nature would have been easy to dismiss as the other side's slander to the German on the ground. People today barely know what happened in Abu Graib, and that's with modern communications technology.

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