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Weizsäcker's speech on 40th anniversary of WW2's end (1985)

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Re: Weizsäcker's speech on 40th anniversary of WW2's end (1985)

#21

Post by ellimilial »

indigo945 wrote: post #14
ellimilial wrote: post #8

It's educational how Germany's East / West division reverberates in this speech with the special relation to the USSR. The apologetic tone, appeasement, justification. One can only hope that this would no longer be necessary nowadays.

Why would apology no longer be necessary? The crimes committed by Germans against the population of the USSR are unspeakable. One can only hope that apologies like these will never again be necessary.

Perhaps I should have been more precise. You're absolutely right about being apologetic for the atrocities committed.

I was referring to trying to justify Soviet Union's attacks on Poland and Finland as well as annexation of parts of Romania. E.g.'The Soviet Union was prepared to allow other nations to fight one another so that it could have a share of the spoils'. It was not 'other nations' fighting and Soviet-German alliance provided room for Soviet expansionism.

Re: Weizsäcker's speech on 40th anniversary of WW2's end (1985)

#23

Post by realradicalwash »

docdeek wrote: post #7

"Guilt is, like innocence, not collective, but personal...The vast majority of today's population were either children then or had not been born. They cannot profess a guilt of their own for crimes that they did not commit. No discerning person can expect them to wear a penitential robe simply because they are Germans. But their forefathers have left them a grave legacy. All of us, whether guilty or not, whether old…

Just to be sure that the passage is not misinterpreted (not saying you do, OP): This was not said to excuse the Germans from the responsibility of facing their history.

I can personally be not guilty and yet, by being part of a society that builds on a troubled past, bear the responsibilities that come with that past (responsibility to do better, reparations, making amends, and alike).

And in this spirit, Weizaecker continued: "No discerning person can expect them to wear a penitential robe simply because they are Germans. But their forefathers have left them a grave legacy. All of us, whether guilty or not, whether old or young, must accept the past. We are all affected by its consequences and liable for it. The young and old generations must and can help each other to understand why it is vital to keep alive the memories."

This point can imv be applied to many historical failings and their long lasting legacies.

Re: Weizsäcker's speech on 40th anniversary of WW2's end (1985)

#24

Post by ihm »

I couldn’t read the whole thing, but as a Jew whose relatives and culture was murdered by the Germans, I found it did not adequately address the reality that many Germans knew about the camps (to say nothing of the progroms and humiliations that preceded them) and that the people who perpetrated the Holocaust were in large part incorporated unreformed into German society after the war.

The speech reads

> Yet with every day something became clearer, and this must be stated on behalf of all of us today: the 8th of May was a day of liberation. It liberated all of us from the inhumanity and tyranny of the National-Socialist regime.

Maybe this rang true to many Germans of 1985, I can’t know. But the historical fact is (just to take an example) the post war German government was staffed with individuals who served at high positions in the Nazi regime and surely believed in, or at least we’re comfortable with, the Nazi cause. I’m sure in the private sector there were even more unreformed Nazis.

It also seems to suggest that the German people couldn’t know what atrocities were being committed, which it was well known what was going on. Both the camps and the progroms and public humiliations visited upon Jews and others. EDIT: I take the criticism of some of the commenters below that not all Germans knew the full extent of the mass murder.

So the whole speech rings hollow to me, and it’s purpose mostly seems to be to assuage the guilt of an entire population responsible for truly horrific acts. Which, yeah, the Germans would need that in order to be able to move forward, but the comments here are definitely not understanding the speech in that critical light.

Re: Weizsäcker's speech on 40th anniversary of WW2's end (1985)

#25

Post by burger_moon »

Since we're on the topic of Germany WWII. I read a couple books about Treblinka over the weekend. The atrocities that happened there were sickening. To read about what these people were forced to do there in this death camp is painful.

The Germans and Ukrainians who did these horrific acts of murder and torture were unaffected by it, as told by two authors who survived.

It leaves me with more questions than answers. How can people do this to others, it takes so little to motivate people to turn into savage murders, and why did then not teach us about these death camps in school. Everyone knows about Auschwitz but they skipped over the pure death camps and focused more on the rah-rah we're winning battles than observing the suffering that took place. It all makes me sad. It makes me sad knowing what some people in America the "free" country were going through during this time too.

Re: Weizsäcker's speech on 40th anniversary of WW2's end (1985)

#26

Post by luckylion »

jchallis wrote: post #11

Only Nixon can go to China. Only a conservative political leader who was a captain on the Eastern Front telling the nation that it was time to acknowledge the past and look to the future could be heard.

"Acknowledge the past" would have been a controversial position in 1945, maybe in 1955, but definitely not in 1985.

Re: Weizsäcker's speech on 40th anniversary of WW2's end (1985)

#27

Post by untog »

realradicalwash wrote: post #23
docdeek wrote: post #7

"Guilt is, like innocence, not collective, but personal...The vast majority of today's population were either children then or had not been born. They cannot profess a guilt of their own for crimes that they did not commit. No discerning person can expect them to wear a penitential robe simply because they are Germans. But their forefathers have left them a grave legacy. All of us, whether guilty or not, whether old…

Just to be sure that the passage is not misinterpreted (not saying you do, OP): This was not said to excuse the Germans from the responsibility of facing their history. I can personally be not guilty and yet, by being part of a society that builds on a troubled past, bear the responsibilities that come with that past (responsibility to do better, reparations, making amends, and alike). And in this spirit, Weizaecker…

> This point can imv be applied to many historical failings and their long lasting legacies.

Feels particularly resonant at this point in the United States. I've heard the argument before that slavery was abolished long ago, so it's time to move on. Unfortunately to the contrary: the effects are still with us. That doesn't mean us white folks have to assume personal guilt as if we held slaves ourselves, but we should be active in making amends.

Re: Weizsäcker's speech on 40th anniversary of WW2's end (1985)

#28

Post by dmichulke »

indigo945 wrote: post #14
ellimilial wrote: post #8

It's educational how Germany's East / West division reverberates in this speech with the special relation to the USSR. The apologetic tone, appeasement, justification. One can only hope that this would no longer be necessary nowadays.

Why would apology no longer be necessary? The crimes committed by Germans against the population of the USSR are unspeakable. One can only hope that apologies like these will never again be necessary.

It's probably not what OP meant but an apology is also no longer possible.

Assuming of course I can only apologize for something where I was somehow involved in the first place.

Re: Weizsäcker's speech on 40th anniversary of WW2's end (1985)

#29

Post by luckylion »

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #19
jacobush wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably a reference to immigration and how it (in their view) only benefited Capital owners.

Is it taboo in Germany to suggest that increasing the supply of labour would drive down the price?

Yes. Anything that isn't praise and "we'll all be better off" is taboo, and it doesn't matter what party, what your other positions are, it's sacrilegious.

It's not only immigration though, the same is true for e.g. European political integration. It's considered to be the only thing that keeps us from certain war, so any skepticism is understood as hyper nationalistic and willing to risk peace in Europe.

Re: Weizsäcker's speech on 40th anniversary of WW2's end (1985)

#30

Post by snlOAkk »

ihm wrote: post #24

I couldn’t read the whole thing, but as a Jew whose relatives and culture was murdered by the Germans, I found it did not adequately address the reality that many Germans knew about the camps (to say nothing of the progroms and humiliations that preceded them) and that the people who perpetrated the Holocaust were in large part incorporated unreformed into German society after the war. The speech reads > Yet with eve…

The majority of issues with Nazis in government positions and industry had been addressed (partly of course, best effort ...) during the student revolts 1968-197x.

There was one case where an activist slapped a politician in the face and many similar things.

That generation became teachers from 1975 on, and public education was intensely focused on the history 1933-1945, sometimes to the exclusion of other periods. (I find that U.S. people are much better informed about Roman history than I am.)

> Maybe this rang true to many Germans of 1985.

It did, the speech was largely preaching to the choir.

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