Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year • Hacker News Board

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#191

Post by cosmodisk » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 2:28 PM UTC

crimsonalucard5 wrote: post #172

zebraflask wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might have that backward. Test scores are somewhat influenced by the income level of the student's parents: wealthier families can afford to give their kids resources like study time, books, tutors, a home environment that values academic success, etc., that result in higher scores. A holistic process mitigates that disparity. I highly doubt the intent of this change is to "favor rich kids" or any of the…

High test scores are correlated with income but income is not a causative factor. Most asian immigrants came here with nothing and much less resources than the caucasians who've already been here for years. They worked hard and performed well on the SATs and got into great schools and as a result are now generating a higher than average income than caucasians. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_…

What you mention here is more of a cultural thing.In some, there's emphasis,if not obsession, to make sure the kids do learn so they could go to college/university/whatever. This is also pushed quite heavily at family level too. This may not be the same in other groups.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#192

Post by AlchemistCamp » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 2:29 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #104

hnthro12564 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a GRE score in the 50th percentile and was still accepted because of my research focus. My PhD was fairly successful with a track record that was better than most of my peers. So, my disdain for these general-purpose tests is quite personal. In my opinion, the GRE mostly checks how good you are as a test taker. None of that is important to academic success. It invariably filters for a fairly streamlined and opt…

I don't agree with the idea that one can "optimize" for the GRE without knowing anything relevant to the field the GRE is in. I did not optimize for the GRE, I did not prep for it, I did not look at a study guide for it, I simply went and took the test cold. The questions were on material one would expect to cover in basic engineering and science courses. I don't buy the notion that anyone who does well on the GRE is…

Which subject test was it that you took?

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#193

Post by mc32 » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 2:29 PM UTC

cosmodisk wrote: post #189

crimsonalucard5 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that make SAT scores useless?

If every candidate has the same score, the score itself becomes meaningless. Imagine getting 200 identical applications for a job,where all you see is John Smith with x years at corp Y. How do you select the best candidate on this info?

Right so you’re saying they could randomly pick from their applicant pool because right now only perfect scores apply.

But wouldn’t that cease being the case once scores are not taken into account? Presumably (retroactively speaking) I could have applied or my friends could have applied... now if they do a random selection they could get one of us...

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#194

Post by ylem » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 2:29 PM UTC

akyu wrote: post #115

I have a hard time understanding the logic here. GPAs are essentially useless, so what else do we have to go off of? "Hollistic admissions" processes seem to be even more skewed towards rich kids, as they have far greater opportunities outside of the class room to pad their resumes in exactly the way that colleges look for. This seems entirely backwards to me. If there is a systemic bias in test scores, it is still b…

Dumb question, but are GPAs useless? I mean a plot of say high school GPA vs say college graduation rate or college GPA would be rather informative.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#195

Post by Loughla » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 2:29 PM UTC

souterrain wrote: post #145

throwaway287391 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd bet a large part of the reason is cultural. For just about any American high school student who's been exposed to the mainstream culture their entire lives (including myself at the time), the idea of missing out on the "college experience" (i.e. mostly partying) that just about every conventionally successful person they've ever met will have gone through and instead going to "small salary vocational training" wo…

American culture also devalues community college in this way. The way we break this is by changing our hiring decisions. If you have a Harvard grad (or other private university grad) in front of you, consider if they really are the right candidate. Consider recruiting from local community and public colleges, including public non-traditional colleges. Build a rapport with the job placement offices at these schools. I…

>Build a rapport with the job placement offices at these schools.

This is 100% the right answer. Source: my career in higher education has been mostly at the community college level.

Universities and 4-year colleges are not as incentivized as community colleges to build career pathways and make direct changes to curriculum based on external input. Most community colleges (I'm betting all of them, but I can't say that for sure) have committees of business leaders to inform curriculum decisions. Community colleges are also more nimble when it comes to creating degree pathways - therefore, if the graduates do not have the skills they need for your business, they can spin up a new degree in less than a year, fully accredited, while universities may take 3-5 years.

Further, businesses can impact individual class curriculum at a community college via these advisory committees. This just simply does not happen at a university.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#196

Post by Loughla » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 2:31 PM UTC

snarf21 wrote: post #119

filereaper wrote: post #31

I highly recommend watching the video by Scott Galloway on The College Implosion. [1] "Colleges have become luxury brands and are adopting a strategy of artificial scarcity to create irrational margins" There's a large movement right now where many are saying the large tuition fees for Zoom lectures aren't worth it. Colleges sell themselves for the experience and are a luxury lifestyle brand almost, but with covid th…

I think we should just roll some kind of standardized test into your Junior year. Instead of it being this external expensive thing, everyone who wants to go to college can just take a half year preparation course in your Junior year and take the test at the end. We don't need this to be external. We already do a lot of standardized tests to measure student performance. This fixes the GPA problem between schools and…

Most high school students take the SAT/ACT in their junior year already. Many only take the test that once.

Many high schools have test-taking built into the curriculum for the first half of that year of school.

Some states have replaced their standardized testing with the SAT/ACT.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#197

Post by tinyhouse » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 2:34 PM UTC

Harvard can be corrupt. There's a very average girl in my town who wouldn't get admitted to grad school at Harvard if her dad wasn't a law professor at Harvard.

Regarding asians. It's not about race. Diversity in academia is important for many reasons. It's not about being asian, it's about living in a rich family at a top school district, regardless of your race. A poor kid from a bad neighborhood cannot compete with that. The key is to find those who can close the gap. Taking someone's background into consideration is the right thing to do. There's some subjectivity in the process, so it's not ideal and someone would always be upset, but it's better than just looking at test scores.

To give you an example. I have friends who live at one of the top school districts in MA. In the last 3 years of their daughter's high school, they optimized her acceptance to college. Spending a lot of money on private lessons, making sure she volunteers in the right places since it looks good on the college application, paying money for a local expert to help her with the admission essay, etc. This is on top of the fact that she is already at a great high school who is optimized for getting its students into top schools.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#198

Post by C1sc0cat » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 2:35 PM UTC

cosmodisk wrote: post #191

crimsonalucard5 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High test scores are correlated with income but income is not a causative factor. Most asian immigrants came here with nothing and much less resources than the caucasians who've already been here for years. They worked hard and performed well on the SATs and got into great schools and as a result are now generating a higher than average income than caucasians. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_…

What you mention here is more of a cultural thing.In some, there's emphasis,if not obsession, to make sure the kids do learn so they could go to college/university/whatever. This is also pushed quite heavily at family level too. This may not be the same in other groups.

Its also pushing kids into career directions that they may not really want to do and in some cases are not just suited to.

The only time I have seen some one who was just not suited to development was case of this.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#199

Post by mauflows » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 2:36 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #134

travisoneill1 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How else are you going to keep the Asians out?

Sarcastically phrased, but it's the real answer. The colleges need to shed objective measures so they can continue their social programs unimpeded by any objective standards that might reveal their increasingly obvious biases. If you want to get into Harvard, I recommend striving to demonstrate greater fealty to the hardest of hard left-wing ideals than your fellow applicants, as that will become the real criterion f…

Couldn't diversity be considered an objectively good thing to strive to have?

Anecdotally, I went to a technical school but some of my biggest shifts in perspective came from interacting with liberal arts and minority students.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#200

Post by Vervious » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 2:38 PM UTC

I remain skeptical that admissions committees can distinguish between great students and good students through their personal statements. (Not that the SAT would have helped there either)