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Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

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Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#181

Post by arbitrary_name »

yorwba wrote: post #167
not_a_moth wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone intimate with Germany's vocational training system, that's used as an alternative to college by approximately half of all graduating high school students? 2-3 years small salary vocational training straight out of HS at 1 of 400k participating companies in 1 of 400 role types. I want to know why implementing this isn't a national debate in US, it seems like such an obviously good idea.

Most of those who go for vocational training don't have a "high-school degree" in the sense of 12 or more years of schooling. They may leave one of several types of secondary school with a degree after 10 years or even less. I believe the American term for someone like that is "high-school dropout". So a better analogy might be "The majority of German high-school dropouts spend 2-3 years as small-salary interns befor…

Because from my limited understanding, it allowed them to easily participate in further vocational training to become well paid specialists or leaders. In addition, the support system was such that there were numerous opportunities across the Mittelstand, whereas in the USA is easy for dropouts to be stuck flipping burgers long term without support or guidance to turn their job as fry lord into a career or job that is more...sustainable.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#182

Post by [deleted] »

jerf wrote: post #134
travisoneill1 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How else are you going to keep the Asians out?

Sarcastically phrased, but it's the real answer. The colleges need to shed objective measures so they can continue their social programs unimpeded by any objective standards that might reveal their increasingly obvious biases. If you want to get into Harvard, I recommend striving to demonstrate greater fealty to the hardest of hard left-wing ideals than your fellow applicants, as that will become the real criterion f…

[deleted]

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#183

Post by crimsonalucard5 »

bash-j wrote: post #118
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have heard the same thing about universities in Japan. High school in Japan is so much pressure that some students crack under it, but then once you get to university it is supposedly easily to just slack off for your entire degree program.

Do employers care about what grades you got in university?

I've had it this happen. It was a startup that was ran and helmed by mostly people from academia. These people have never been outside of academia so that might have influenced there decision to check my grades.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#184

Post by usaar333 »

rayiner wrote: post #169
usaar333 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not exaggerate things. Comparing UC or Caltech is probably best (granted they use less controversial socioeconomic factors). Caltech is 43% Asian American vs 27% at MIT. Note that the race-neutral number is somewhere in between (Asians disproportionately yield to schools that don't use racial preferences because they are discriminated against elsewhere)

The competitive admissions high school I went to (which has an SAT average similar to Ivy League universities) has a completely race/SES-blind admissions system and is now 70% Asian.

That's a function of local demographics as well though. Lowell high school in San Francisco has those numbers but that's in part due to (more affluent than average) whites long fleeing the SF public schools.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#185

Post by strgcmc »

WalterBright wrote: post #104
hnthro12564 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a GRE score in the 50th percentile and was still accepted because of my research focus. My PhD was fairly successful with a track record that was better than most of my peers. So, my disdain for these general-purpose tests is quite personal. In my opinion, the GRE mostly checks how good you are as a test taker. None of that is important to academic success. It invariably filters for a fairly streamlined and opt…

I don't agree with the idea that one can "optimize" for the GRE without knowing anything relevant to the field the GRE is in. I did not optimize for the GRE, I did not prep for it, I did not look at a study guide for it, I simply went and took the test cold. The questions were on material one would expect to cover in basic engineering and science courses. I don't buy the notion that anyone who does well on the GRE is…

But you are kind of proving the point with your example... you are in the minority, and most people do not take it "cold". If everyone took it cold, then what you said makes more sense. But most people, unlike you, are trying to game the system for a higher score, through extensive prep work and additional test-specific training (else, why would there be so many test prep books and courses and tutors out there?). The fact that you didn't utilize those methods doesn't mean others won't.

In a sense, you're like an athlete who doesn't take steroids or doesn't push the limits of doping policy by trying to game the countermeasures, and instead of feeling aggrieved that others are achieving similar/better results as you via their just-within-the-letter-of-the-law tactics (or sometimes wildly outside the law tactics, a la Varsity Blues), instead you still feel some allegiance to an idealized view of a fair system that simply doesn't exist.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#186

Post by C1sc0cat »

yorwba wrote: post #167
not_a_moth wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone intimate with Germany's vocational training system, that's used as an alternative to college by approximately half of all graduating high school students? 2-3 years small salary vocational training straight out of HS at 1 of 400k participating companies in 1 of 400 role types. I want to know why implementing this isn't a national debate in US, it seems like such an obviously good idea.

Most of those who go for vocational training don't have a "high-school degree" in the sense of 12 or more years of schooling. They may leave one of several types of secondary school with a degree after 10 years or even less. I believe the American term for someone like that is "high-school dropout". So a better analogy might be "The majority of German high-school dropouts spend 2-3 years as small-salary interns befor…

And I believe that jumping tracks is harder in Germany - even after the EU made them reform the system.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#187

Post by mrfredward »

akyu wrote: post #115

I have a hard time understanding the logic here. GPAs are essentially useless, so what else do we have to go off of? "Hollistic admissions" processes seem to be even more skewed towards rich kids, as they have far greater opportunities outside of the class room to pad their resumes in exactly the way that colleges look for. This seems entirely backwards to me. If there is a systemic bias in test scores, it is still b…

A very cynical answer to what's the logic here: objective measures get in the way of many non-academic college admission goals, so colleges want to do away with them. One of those goals is racial diversity, and that's the only one colleges openly talk about because it's the only one that can positively impact society. Other goals include raising more money by admitting the children of major donors, improving the prestige of the college by admitting top athletes (even when they lack academic ability and motivation), and connecting the college with as many important and powerful people as possible(to bring both money and prestige to the college, and/or to help high ranking administrators make connections).

Of course colleges do all these things already, but imagine how much easier it will be for them when they don't have these pesky test scores showing the students they want to admit aren't qualified.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#188

Post by Loughla »

filereaper wrote: post #31

I highly recommend watching the video by Scott Galloway on The College Implosion. [1] "Colleges have become luxury brands and are adopting a strategy of artificial scarcity to create irrational margins" There's a large movement right now where many are saying the large tuition fees for Zoom lectures aren't worth it. Colleges sell themselves for the experience and are a luxury lifestyle brand almost, but with covid th…

>many are saying the large tuition fees for Zoom lectures aren't worth it.

If I was an outgoing high school senior this year, I would 100% be attending a community college in the fall. If you're all online, there are no connections to be made on campus, and res. life isn't part of the equation. At that point, there are no incentives to pay more for the same first two years of college.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#189

Post by cosmodisk »

crimsonalucard5 wrote: post #177
TechBro8615 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SAT scores are also pretty useless, when Harvard has enough applications with perfect scores to fill their class multiple times.

How does that make SAT scores useless?

If every candidate has the same score, the score itself becomes meaningless. Imagine getting 200 identical applications for a job,where all you see is John Smith with x years at corp Y. How do you select the best candidate on this info?

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#190

Post by rediguanayum »

akyu wrote: post #115

I have a hard time understanding the logic here. GPAs are essentially useless, so what else do we have to go off of? "Hollistic admissions" processes seem to be even more skewed towards rich kids, as they have far greater opportunities outside of the class room to pad their resumes in exactly the way that colleges look for. This seems entirely backwards to me. If there is a systemic bias in test scores, it is still b…

Harvard will use family donations and legacy (siblings, parents and grand parents who were alums) as replacement signals. It can't hurt to know some faculty personally via family connections too, and get them to send a letter of recommendation.
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