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Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

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Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#171

Post by new2628 »

akyu wrote: post #115

I have a hard time understanding the logic here. GPAs are essentially useless, so what else do we have to go off of? "Hollistic admissions" processes seem to be even more skewed towards rich kids, as they have far greater opportunities outside of the class room to pad their resumes in exactly the way that colleges look for. This seems entirely backwards to me. If there is a systemic bias in test scores, it is still b…

I think you understood the logic perfectly well, holistic admissions are more deliberate and less prone to those pesky objective outside factors.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#172

Post by crimsonalucard5 »

zebraflask wrote: post #148
akyu wrote: post #115

I have a hard time understanding the logic here. GPAs are essentially useless, so what else do we have to go off of? "Hollistic admissions" processes seem to be even more skewed towards rich kids, as they have far greater opportunities outside of the class room to pad their resumes in exactly the way that colleges look for. This seems entirely backwards to me. If there is a systemic bias in test scores, it is still b…

I think you might have that backward. Test scores are somewhat influenced by the income level of the student's parents: wealthier families can afford to give their kids resources like study time, books, tutors, a home environment that values academic success, etc., that result in higher scores. A holistic process mitigates that disparity. I highly doubt the intent of this change is to "favor rich kids" or any of the…

High test scores are correlated with income but income is not a causative factor.

Most asian immigrants came here with nothing and much less resources than the caucasians who've already been here for years. They worked hard and performed well on the SATs and got into great schools and as a result are now generating a higher than average income than caucasians.

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_Uni...

Not trying to brag about asians here. It's really just part of the culture and it can get really extreme. It stems mostly from parenting... the memes below are really illustrative:

https://www.pinterest.com/lindaschloss/asian-father-memes/

I think one time when I was a kid I mentioned to my dad I was interested in becoming an artist. My dad beat the shit out of me. Now I'm on hacker news and I'm definitely not an artist.

I would argue that what is causing the income disparity is the ability to work hard and study. This ability leads to higher test scores and higher income.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#173

Post by [deleted] »

akyu wrote: post #115

I have a hard time understanding the logic here. GPAs are essentially useless, so what else do we have to go off of? "Hollistic admissions" processes seem to be even more skewed towards rich kids, as they have far greater opportunities outside of the class room to pad their resumes in exactly the way that colleges look for. This seems entirely backwards to me. If there is a systemic bias in test scores, it is still b…

[deleted]

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#174

Post by cbm-vic-20 »

commandlinefan wrote: post #153
dwaltrip wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Merit is not a perfectly objective concept. Someone has to come up with criteria based on whatever goals and values they think are important.

> Merit is not a perfectly objective concept Well, it used to be, but it isn't any more now that they're rejecting standardized tests.

Those kids should then go on to and excel elsewhere with their "Master of Standardized Tests" degree.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#175

Post by new2628 »

jerf wrote: post #134
travisoneill1 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How else are you going to keep the Asians out?

Sarcastically phrased, but it's the real answer. The colleges need to shed objective measures so they can continue their social programs unimpeded by any objective standards that might reveal their increasingly obvious biases. If you want to get into Harvard, I recommend striving to demonstrate greater fealty to the hardest of hard left-wing ideals than your fellow applicants, as that will become the real criterion f…

You made an insightful if uncomfortable comment. You will be voted down into oblivion.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#176

Post by runawaybottle »

beaner wrote: post #36
filereaper wrote: post #31

I highly recommend watching the video by Scott Galloway on The College Implosion. [1] "Colleges have become luxury brands and are adopting a strategy of artificial scarcity to create irrational margins" There's a large movement right now where many are saying the large tuition fees for Zoom lectures aren't worth it. Colleges sell themselves for the experience and are a luxury lifestyle brand almost, but with covid th…

I don't get it, aren't most colleges non-profits? Why do they seek such high tuition fees if they're not profiting? Or are they, somehow?

You don’t want to appear less premium. Hyundai increased their prices to make the Genesis seem like a luxury brand. It worked, their sales went up.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#177

Post by crimsonalucard5 »

TechBro8615 wrote: post #168
akyu wrote: post #115

I have a hard time understanding the logic here. GPAs are essentially useless, so what else do we have to go off of? "Hollistic admissions" processes seem to be even more skewed towards rich kids, as they have far greater opportunities outside of the class room to pad their resumes in exactly the way that colleges look for. This seems entirely backwards to me. If there is a systemic bias in test scores, it is still b…

SAT scores are also pretty useless, when Harvard has enough applications with perfect scores to fill their class multiple times.

How does that make SAT scores useless?

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#178

Post by new2628 »

hanifc wrote: post #156
zebraflask wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might have that backward. Test scores are somewhat influenced by the income level of the student's parents: wealthier families can afford to give their kids resources like study time, books, tutors, a home environment that values academic success, etc., that result in higher scores. A holistic process mitigates that disparity. I highly doubt the intent of this change is to "favor rich kids" or any of the…

> I highly doubt the intent... I don't think the user was making the point that it was an intentional decision, but rather an unintentional consequence.

I don't think Harvard is oblivious to these effects.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#179

Post by learc83 »

WalterBright wrote: post #89
code4tee wrote: post #18

The SAT has always generally been a test showing how well you prepared for the SAT. For top schools all viable candidates had very good scores so it wasn’t much use. It was just one of those things everyone did because everyone did it. With more opting out that momentum goes away and increasingly now people are asking “so why did we use this test again?” Likely won’t be long until the SAT just disappears entirely and…

> The SAT has always generally been a test showing how well you prepared for the SAT. I've heard that claim a lot, but never accompanied by evidence. Nobody I knew prepped for the SAT, and many got into top schools. Unless you count paying attention in math class, and reading adult level books "prepping".

That was a while ago though as you've stated elsewhere. The percentage of kids who score perfect or near perfect scores has gone up dramatically over the last 20 years.

https://www.compassprep.com/great-to-good-the-diluted-value-...

My scores where good enough to get in almost anywhere in the 2000s, but they're barley above the 50th percentile at our flagship state university now.

It's unlikely that the average intelligence of high schoolers has increased that much. It's much more likely that people have figured out how to prepare for the SAT.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#180

Post by kenjackson »

nordsieck wrote: post #111
dwaltrip wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Merit is not a perfectly objective concept. Someone has to come up with criteria based on whatever goals and values they think are important.

> Someone has to come up with criteria based on whatever goals and values they think are important. The most obvious criteria is: most likely to graduate. Some others that aren't bad: * Highest expected value of future donations * Highest expected value of impact (publication) * Highest expected value of future salary * Highest expected value of holding public office (the weighting here might be contentious) As long…

I’d add “most likely to become famous for a good reason.”

Most likely to graduate is interesting. Almost everyone I know who didn’t graduate, it was due to finances. Purely academic reasons, at least anecdotally, seem relatively uncommon now.

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