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Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

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Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#281

Post by londons_explore »

mft_ wrote: post #248
londons_explore wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Defeat device...? Cheating...? Multi-billion pound fine?

Totally different, isn't it? Presumably the Vauxhall mentioned would provide exactly the measured MPG when driven at the correct speed by any owner in the real world - hence the 'flat spot' noticed. The defeat concept you're referring to (presumably VW's) was set to only function during a test, and not in the real world (AIUI).

VW's defeat concept was set to function only at the exact RPM's used during the test. If a real-world customer were to use those RPM's and conditions, it would activate too. In fact a CCC talk showed that 5% of regular driving activated it.

Perhaps about 5% of regular vauxhall driving was in those flat spots...

Seems the same to me.

Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#282

Post by zpeti »

steelframe wrote: post #18

I've been following a multi-month discussion over in the r/electricvehicles subreddit about EPA range. There's a growing consensus that something is very wrong with it. Here are a couple of the articles that got some discussion in that sub: https://insideevs.com/news/407807/eletric-car-real-world-ran... https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a30874032/porsche-tayca... As someone who has owned both a Tesla Model X and o…

Why does actual EPA range numbers matter, when we all know they aren't perfectly accurate? They aren't accurate for ICE cars either.

The point is Tesla has increased their range yet again. There is no disputing this fact. If people were buying Teslas before, they're getting even more value out of it now.

It seems most people here find this EPA discrepancy a great justification for criticising Tesla, but I highly doubt anyone owns a Tesla who is doing the criticising.

Most Tesla owners were happy to buy the Model S at 265 EPA range. Now its 400, almost 50% more. Who cares if that actually means 300 miles? That 300 miles is still awesome, and if its good enough to buy a Tesla, buy one. If not, don't.

Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#283

Post by rcMgD2BwE72F »

lazyjones wrote: post #275
Tepix wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Owning a car in a city is dumb. For some cities.

Why? For which cities? I live in the historic city center of a large European city and own a car. It's very comfortable, safe (especially during pandemics) and useful (for transporting things) and it's almost essential for me because I pick up the kids from their mother almost every weekend and that's a 40 Km drive one way, which takes about 3 times as long with public transport (and would force me to bring them back…

63.2% of Parisians don't have a car.

I'm one of them: I ride my bike (or a velib) and only use public transport when traveling to the suburbs and in the countryside (with children, too). I rarely drive, a handful of days every year at most (for some holidays, and to move out around once in a decade).

You say "It's very comfortable, safe and useful" but that just your POV. Your car is definitely not comfortable to the vast majority of Parisians, nor safe or useful (you do realize you contribute to all the traffic, noise and fumes?).

>childless egoists who want more space for themselves

How much space does your car take? Do you realize they are countless families who simply walk, bike and take public transport and who don't really count because no one care about them since they're silent, take no space at all, and don't need car subsidies to support big auto?

Things are getting better nowadays, precisely because we're starting to focus on the comfort and safety of the many (not the few).

Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#285

Post by lazyjones »

rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #283
lazyjones wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? For which cities? I live in the historic city center of a large European city and own a car. It's very comfortable, safe (especially during pandemics) and useful (for transporting things) and it's almost essential for me because I pick up the kids from their mother almost every weekend and that's a 40 Km drive one way, which takes about 3 times as long with public transport (and would force me to bring them back…

63.2% of Parisians don't have a car. I'm one of them: I ride my bike (or a velib) and only use public transport when traveling to the suburbs and in the countryside (with children, too). I rarely drive, a handful of days every year at most (for some holidays, and to move out around once in a decade). You say "It's very comfortable, safe and useful" but that just your POV. Your car is definitely not comfortable to the…

> Your car is definitely not comfortable to the vast majority of Parisians, nor safe or useful (you do realize you contribute to all the traffic, noise and fumes?).

Alright, other people might have issues with it, but why is it "dumb"? And my car makes almost no noise and emits absolutely no fumes.

I have issues with noisy people, that doesn't mean it's dumb to be noisy.

> How much space does your car take? Do you realize they are countless families who simply walk, bike and take public transport and who don't really count because no one care about them since they're silent, take no space at all, and don't need car subsidies to support big auto?

I have no idea what you are trying to argue here. Yes, my car is big. Other people have big apartments, big gardens or are simply obese. The question here was: why is it "dumb"?

Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#286

Post by codecamper »

allendoerfer wrote: post #239
codecamper wrote: post #225

dear Tesla. I live in a city.

Inside a (properly designed) city you should not need (to own) a car at all.

I agree, but what city is properly designed? They are most often designed for cars. In Europe they were designed for walking & that's a big part of why I prefer Europe.

But there is no city where you need a 400 mile range to your car.

Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#287

Post by short_sells_poo »

zpeti wrote: post #282
steelframe wrote: post #18

I've been following a multi-month discussion over in the r/electricvehicles subreddit about EPA range. There's a growing consensus that something is very wrong with it. Here are a couple of the articles that got some discussion in that sub: https://insideevs.com/news/407807/eletric-car-real-world-ran... https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a30874032/porsche-tayca... As someone who has owned both a Tesla Model X and o…

Why does actual EPA range numbers matter, when we all know they aren't perfectly accurate? They aren't accurate for ICE cars either. The point is Tesla has increased their range yet again. There is no disputing this fact. If people were buying Teslas before, they're getting even more value out of it now. It seems most people here find this EPA discrepancy a great justification for criticising Tesla, but I highly doub…

Because ideally consumers should be allowed to make informed decisions, which is not possible if one party - willingly or not - misrepresents the numbers.

Tesla should be criticized for every number they inflate. Every time they pull some marketing crap, they should be called out on it.

If it's such a benefit as you write, why do they feel the need inflate the numbers?

What happened to honesty among engineers? Understated performance, instead of throwing around huge numbers that are technically possible but are nothing short of misleading for the consumers? I suppose it clearly works for Tesla, but my support goes to the company who claims a conservative number that I'm actually likely to exceed in reality.

Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#288

Post by throwaway0a5e »

chemmail wrote: post #196
m463 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can compare a leaf and a tesla, both of which I have had direct experience with. The leaf did lots better around town, but it was a relatively small and light car. The battery was charged significantly higher and drained significantly lower than tesla batteries. There was degradation. At highway speeds it was significantly less efficient and range anxiety became a real problem. On trips usable range was much less t…

Oh yeah, The leaf was scarey on the freeway. It would burn so much battery and was pretty loud. I try to keep it below 60MPH in which things get uncomfortable. In the city it was very compliant and very efficient. I could go through two weeks without charging my now half degraded battery. In the Tesla it loves going to about 70mph. After that you start getting wind noise. Two very different animals. But both great ca…

I've never ridden in a Leaf or other compact electric but is it really worse than the 2002 Tauruses and 1999 Grand Caravans (or 2019 Mitsubishi Mirage for that matter) that people seem to have no problem keeping up with traffic in?

I can see it being worse than whatever people who are buying leafs are trading in but I can't see it being that bad overall.

Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#289

Post by MDWolinski »

zpeti wrote: post #282
steelframe wrote: post #18

I've been following a multi-month discussion over in the r/electricvehicles subreddit about EPA range. There's a growing consensus that something is very wrong with it. Here are a couple of the articles that got some discussion in that sub: https://insideevs.com/news/407807/eletric-car-real-world-ran... https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a30874032/porsche-tayca... As someone who has owned both a Tesla Model X and o…

Why does actual EPA range numbers matter, when we all know they aren't perfectly accurate? They aren't accurate for ICE cars either. The point is Tesla has increased their range yet again. There is no disputing this fact. If people were buying Teslas before, they're getting even more value out of it now. It seems most people here find this EPA discrepancy a great justification for criticising Tesla, but I highly doub…

For me, the EPA range numbers are important because I'm in the market to buy a new car later this year and I'd like a fair gauge to compare vehicles on expected milage (part of the reason is wife has mileage anxiety, which I believe a lot of non-EV people have as well).

Looking at the first article the lead commenter posted that compared "real-world" to EPA ranges, Tesla misses the EPA range by an average of 22%. Other vehicles that miss the EPA range average 4.5% off.

Of course the EPA range is as much an estimate as the testing is and conditions change between testing and real world scenarios, but what's so different with the Tesla vehicles during EPA testing compared to real-world testing to cause such a large drop-off compared to other vehicles.

We can rightly question the EPA testing methodology in the first place meaning, what are they running (or not running) that regular people would. For example, does EPA not run the A/C during the test? I'm not accusing the Tesla A/C from excessive battery draw, as it's just an example.

Yes, having a larger battery is welcome, so with an EPA range of 400 miles, then we can real-world expect 320 miles.

*Quick addendum: I'm not a big fan of these types of articles and can more then accept that the testing the article performed was "flawed" as well. But we do need better, consistent range tests.

Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#290

Post by throwaway0a5e »

safgasCVS wrote: post #252
steelframe wrote: post #18

I've been following a multi-month discussion over in the r/electricvehicles subreddit about EPA range. There's a growing consensus that something is very wrong with it. Here are a couple of the articles that got some discussion in that sub: https://insideevs.com/news/407807/eletric-car-real-world-ran... https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a30874032/porsche-tayca... As someone who has owned both a Tesla Model X and o…

Don’t single Tesla out on this. No car manages to get its official mpg/EPA rating in real-world driving conditions. Some get closer than others and some manufacturers (eg Fiat) designed their motors in a way that maximises their performance on standardised tests. The gap between how ‘hard’ the car has to work to achieve the real world driving conditions vs test conditions plays a big part in the differential. Smaller…

>Don’t single Tesla out on this. No car manages to get its official mpg/EPA rating in real-world driving conditions.

It totally depends on the vehicle. I maintain a fleet of ~10 vehicles and keep records of fuel economy (because it tells me when calipers stick before the drivers do). The vehicles get ridden decently hard and pretty much all the highway miles are in the left lane at whatever speed that may be. A 2/3 majority pretty much always exceed their EPA rating by 2-4mpg. The rest are right on the rating. None of them spend much time in the gridlock that tends to characterize upscale inner suburbs during daylight hours nor do they cruise empty rural highways.

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