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Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

wsj.com

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Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#21

Post by alkibiades »

Let's talk practically, this will hurt people who did best on SAT (asians and jewish people who studied hardest, not rich white people) and help those who did poorly (blacks and hispanics).

The SAT isn't perfect and you can prepare for it (to an extent), but its alot better than GPA or any other measure as atleast it's consistent between schools.

It was actually introduced to help be more egalitarian and meritocratic. And its been shown to correlate pretty well with general purpose IQ tests as well as later success in life.

Removing it will no doubt help them discriminate more against asians and jewish people. they introduced meritocracy and it produced a result they didnt like for certain races so theyre removing it.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#22

Post by young_unixer »

code4tee wrote: post #18

The SAT has always generally been a test showing how well you prepared for the SAT. For top schools all viable candidates had very good scores so it wasn’t much use. It was just one of those things everyone did because everyone did it. With more opting out that momentum goes away and increasingly now people are asking “so why did we use this test again?” Likely won’t be long until the SAT just disappears entirely and…

> The SAT has always generally been a test showing how well you prepared for the SAT.

I don't know about the SAT specifically, but in my country we also have standardized admission tests and, from my appreciation, it's good at measuring 2 things:

1. General Intelligence.

2. How well you prepared for the test.

Sure, (2) may be an undesirable artifact but I think that intelligence is a good way --if not the best-- to select people for college.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#23

Post by alkibiades »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #13

Caltech is doing this -- actually, they're going test blind -- for two years. I think that's pretty notable, since I trust them to be interested in only admitting students that can pass their physics classes.

dont worry, when the admitted student doesnt pass physics theyll say its because of systemic oppression and caltech will pad their scores to get them on their merry way

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#24

Post by gautamcgoel »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #13

Caltech is doing this -- actually, they're going test blind -- for two years. I think that's pretty notable, since I trust them to be interested in only admitting students that can pass their physics classes.

I'm a PhD student at Caltech. There's also a push to eliminate the GRE as a requirement for graduate admissions, in much the same way as some people want to eliminate the SAT as a requirement for undergraduate admissions. In my opinion both proposals are well-intentioned but ultimately bad ideas.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#25

Post by selimthegrim »

deathgrips wrote: post #19
SamReidHughes wrote: post #13

Caltech is doing this -- actually, they're going test blind -- for two years. I think that's pretty notable, since I trust them to be interested in only admitting students that can pass their physics classes.

I know a girl who goes to caltech. She says that they don't require you to take a compilers class to get a computer science degree. Sounds like a joke.

They used to require an operating systems class that used Bryant and O'Halloran. Not the Dragon book but not nothing either.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#26

Post by lacker »

code4tee wrote: post #18

The SAT has always generally been a test showing how well you prepared for the SAT. For top schools all viable candidates had very good scores so it wasn’t much use. It was just one of those things everyone did because everyone did it. With more opting out that momentum goes away and increasingly now people are asking “so why did we use this test again?” Likely won’t be long until the SAT just disappears entirely and…

Studies seem to show that SAT prep helps 20-30 points on average. AFAICT it does help to do SAT prep but it is a relatively minor factor.

for example: https://www.thoughtco.com/are-sat-prep-courses-worth-the-cos....

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#27

Post by jhowell »

SCAQTony wrote: post #11
akhilcacharya wrote: post #2

What a weird way to attempt to be "egalitarian" - Harvard's only purpose is to be selective and exclusionary. You can't be both.

I am cynical enough to believe it's a loophole to keep overachieving Asians or Indians from owning a rightful slot instead of a son or daughter of a wealthy donor, politician, or celebrity.

Why not both? Reconsidering the "rightful slots" of either group would diversify the institution significantly, though there are many who believe diversity is not beneficial. Perhaps Harvard sees a path to increased value in their endeavor to be more representative society.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#28

Post by contemporary343 »

I'm a Canadian who went to an ivy for undergrad, and have always found the American attachment to the SAT a bit puzzling. I'm also puzzled at the widespread view that by removing the SAT some grave injustice or lowering in standards is inevitable. Canadian universities manage to admit students mostly just based on high school grades just fine. (Yes, there are provincial final exams but those scores often are not available for admissions since they're taken in the 12th grade). The SAT itself was an odd exam for me, unlike anything I ever had to take in Canada. The SAT IIs (and AP/IB exams) on the other hand seemed like they assessed things more reasonably. The SAT's heritage as a poor attempt at an IQ test which then morphed into whatever the heck it is today, makes its utility somewhat out of place compared to what most other countries do.

One issue that's brought up is heterogeneity in high school grading practices, but somehow Canada manages. In any case, for "elite" schools, what has always helped the typical middle / upper-middle class applicants are AP scores (if you have a few) and of course SAT IIs as well.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#30

Post by eesmith »

SCAQTony wrote: post #11
akhilcacharya wrote: post #2

What a weird way to attempt to be "egalitarian" - Harvard's only purpose is to be selective and exclusionary. You can't be both.

I am cynical enough to believe it's a loophole to keep overachieving Asians or Indians from owning a rightful slot instead of a son or daughter of a wealthy donor, politician, or celebrity.

Is "owning" a typo for "earning"? I don't see how anyone can own a slot.

To add to your cynicism, university exams started as way to select WASPy prep school students instead of "overachieving" Jewish public school students. See, the tests included a section on Latin, which was much more often taught in private prep schools than public high schools.

To detract from your cynicism, the intrinsic assumption is the SATs are meaningful indicator of "rightfulness."

My understanding is that at best it shows a correlation with the first year of college, and that high school grades show a better correlation than the (gameable) SAT.

Don't know if the WSJ article covers any of this - don't have a subscription. But the header suggests this change is only for the next year, as a response to the pandemic, and not (yet?) a long-term change, so it likely doesn't touch on these issues.

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