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Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

tesla.com

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Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#161
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's possible, every car maker can "optimize towards benchmark". So is your theory that all car makers except Tesla are dumb and cannot optimize their range for EPA tests? That they are morally superior to Tesla and will sacrifice sales by not optimizing for EPA range but some purported "real world range"? And in what way exactly do you optimize for EPA test? I've seen this "explanation" for superior Tesla results…

> If it's possible, every car maker can "optimize towards benchmark". Like VW optimizing cars towards benchmark. Doesn't always ends great.

Not sure faking results counts as optimizing cars /shrug

Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#162
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I made some graphs if anyone's curious, but I can't post them here. I’d love to see them!

Alrighty here's the first graph. Note that this is average speed, so any trips with an average speed near the right by definition have some parts of the trip faster than the average, so the actual drop at 80 mph isn't quite as severe as it looks. https://imgur.com/a/c10NXaz the reason for the cutoff is that because it's pretty hard to have a trip with an AVERAGE speed above 80mpg. It's very rare in my large dataset.

Cool! Thanks. Wonder what the jump from 31-40 (ish?) is about

Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#163
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if you’re familiar with the Model 3 super bottle. Here is an overview of that from Jason Torchinaky (who used to design heat pumps for a living): https://jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-3s-superbottle-easter-e... The octovalve heat pump in the Model Y improves the range by 10% (per an interview with Elon and Sandy Munro). I’ll note that the total range of the Model 3 LR is 322 miles and the Max range of the lar…

> I’ll note that the total range of the Model 3 LR is 322 miles and the Max range of the larger Model Y is 316 miles. That's a function of battery size. The maximum battery size of the current Kona, Niro, and Soul is 64 kWh. Batteries cost money. The Kona, Niro, and Soul are all less expensive than the top end Teslas. > This compares to the 111 miles of all electric miles in the Kia Soul EV Not the current model. > T…

> That's a function of battery size. The maximum battery size of the current Kona, Niro, and Soul is 64 kWh. Batteries cost money. The Kona, Niro, and Soul are all less expensive than the top end Teslas.

The Model 3 LR battery size is 75 kWh. Are you telling me a 9 kWh difference say ~15% is the sole reason for an almost 25% increase in range? If it is only a matter of the battery size, the range would be linear. It is a function of battery size, total mass, and efficiency. A more or less efficient heat pump is absolutely a defining part of this equation, especially in the cold, as the press release you linked stated. It is why the longer, wider, and taller Model Y has only slightly less range than the Model 3 when it should have less due to aerodynamics and increased mass.

> Not the current model.

Sorry, you are right. The 2020 Kia Soul EV range is 243 miles. The google card result is out of date.

> Sure there is. Tesla used to be the #1 BEV maker in Europe. Now they're #3. That's competition for you:

I was referring to competition when it comes to overall efficiency and range. The ID.3 and any EVs built on VW's EV chassis are the closest competition to Tesla has in that area. When it comes to price, it isn't hard to beat Tesla so you're right on this, but I wasn't being specific enough.

> But none of this answers the original question. In what way is Tesla's heat pump better than Hyundai's?

This segment dives much deeper into the octovalve / heat pump for you to see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGffUODWWSE and this podcast has both Sandy Munro and Elon Musk discussing the design in depth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pih4kU6yvz8

Tesla heat pump patent (with diagrams): https://patents.google.com/patent/US20190070924A1/en?oq=US20...

Kia / Hundai heat pump patent (with diagrams): https://patents.google.com/patent/US20160009161A1/en

TL;DNR: look at the diagrams from the Tesla vs the Kia / Hundai patents. The Tesla pump combines the heating and cooling for the cabin interior, battery, drive drain, inverters, and motors into a single package with a closed heating loop. It does it in an entirely novel "printed circuit board design" that uses zero tubes.

The Hundai / Kia approach is more industry standard and much simpler. By being less ambitious, it is not as efficient overall as they still need separate heating / cooling systems for the battery, and/or separate cooling systems for the motors plus drive train.

It isn't a real apples to apples comparison, which is what I meant when I said there is no competition. This sort of thing, or things like the use of Inconel, a super-alloy not seen in any other automotive manufacturer, in the Model S and X. Inconel is usually used for orbital class rockets like the SpaceX Merlin Engine Manifold or United Launch Alliance's new rocket engines. Or the use of the IDRA gigapress (first the OL 5500 CS for the Model Y in 2019. Later, it was upgrade to the OL 6100 CS. https://www.idragroup.com/index.php/en/solutions/machines/gi...), the worlds largest aluminum die cast machine for the underbody of the Model Y. When it was first done with the rear part of the Y body it was the first in the entire industry and created two parts. They've managed to get it down to a single piece with the upgraded OL 6100 CS. There is no one in the industry doing this. All of this ontop of Tesla creating their own Aluminum alloy using metallurgists on loan from SpaceX, who use a proprietary aluminum alloy for the Falcon 9 rocket body.

Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#164

I've been following a multi-month discussion over in the r/electricvehicles subreddit about EPA range. There's a growing consensus that something is very wrong with it. Here are a couple of the articles that got some discussion in that sub: https://insideevs.com/news/407807/eletric-car-real-world-ran... https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a30874032/porsche-tayca... As someone who has owned both a Tesla Model X and o…

I can compare a leaf and a tesla, both of which I have had direct experience with.

The leaf did lots better around town, but it was a relatively small and light car. The battery was charged significantly higher and drained significantly lower than tesla batteries. There was degradation. At highway speeds it was significantly less efficient and range anxiety became a real problem. On trips usable range was much less than the specs because: you couldn't drain it all the way because logistics was a real problem. You also couldn't charge it all the way because a "fast" charger would take as much time to charge to 80% as from 80%-100%. Range was an issue and being an engineer or mathematician helped. Around town 3.5-4.5 miles/kwh was common, on the freeway you would hit 2 at 70mph.

The tesla actually had freeway speeds. Where a leaf would have you in the right hand lane trying to go as slow as possible, the tesla would have you looking out for speed traps. The battery was huge. You could plan your trips with the help of the nav computer and your battery would generally stay in 20-80% range. On long trips it was better to stay 10-60% because the battery would charge faster before it started tapering off. By tapering off, I mean 2-3x the max the leaf would charge on a good day. I will say that tesla battery size makes it possible to care for the battery. It would be uncommon (and sort of bad maintenance) to charge to 90% let alone 100%. Same for below 20%. Telsa shuts off some automatic climate features below 20%

Oh, and tesla drivers are a diverse group. Just talking to them, some will average close to 200 wh/mi, while others will be above 400wh/mi. climate and foot weight make a difference. Besides behavior, there are also several tesla settings that will increase your range. Range mode, different driving settings [chill | standard | sport | ludicrous | ludicrous+ ] depending on the vehicle.

Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla doesn't do any blending of the brake pedal. Pressing the brake pedal always applies the friction brakes only. However, since a software update last year, they have had a one-pedal driving mode (Stopping mode "Hold"). In this mode, the vehicle is able to come to a complete stop without using the brake pedal, using a blend of re-gen and friction brakes to do so. In practice, it means it uses re-gen down to a very…

Quick question - do Teslas turn on brake lights when using one-pedal mode? Seems it can brake quite aggressively using regen.

Modern vehicles are required to turn on the brake lights at a given level of deceleration, regen / brakes or not!

Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#166
Tesla’s batteries fall from their initial range in 2 yrs and to get around it they changed the display. Instead of miles they started calling it “range miles” or something like that and that is a cooked up number using some algorithm. It’s it real and is done to get around the fact that the battery holds less charge over time.

Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#167
post #122

Man do I love Hackernews. Everyone is pro-innovation, pro-future, pro-forward thinking until literally anything new happens, in which case everyone shows up with a "well, ackshually", to tell you why the new idea is dumb. It's amazing to me that Tesla continues to increase State Of The Art range and EV efficiency, at scale, for cars that already smoke the competition. I hope their fervor to improve the technology nev…

People on HN are no different than others. It's easy to be a naysayer and point out flaws, and it's an annoying trend that bogs down or even derails the conversation.

And now I have to brace for the "well actually's" to point out I am doing exactly what I complained about. A continual regression of well actually's

Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually live in a condo complex with 300 units and I get by. I just charge at the local library for free like once a week or at work.

How many charging stations does your library have?

4. The McDonald's next door also has 4. And there are paid ones in the street. It's a solid setup.

Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#169

I've been following a multi-month discussion over in the r/electricvehicles subreddit about EPA range. There's a growing consensus that something is very wrong with it. Here are a couple of the articles that got some discussion in that sub: https://insideevs.com/news/407807/eletric-car-real-world-ran... https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a30874032/porsche-tayca... As someone who has owned both a Tesla Model X and o…

I'm surprised Tesla fans haven't crowd sourced accurate data by now.

Look at these articles. They've collected data for real-world range vs speed in various models, and how fast supercharging works in various situations.

Tesla Model 3 Performance vs RWD consumption - Real Driving Data from 233 Cars

https://forum.abetterrouteplanner.com/blogs/entry/22-tesla-m...

Model 3 Consumption and Charging

https://forum.abetterrouteplanner.com/blogs/entry/13-model-3...

Tesla Model S Consumption vs Speed

https://forum.abetterrouteplanner.com/blogs/entry/9-tesla-mo...

Faster Tesla Supercharging - How does it actually perform?

https://forum.abetterrouteplanner.com/blogs/entry/29-faster-...

Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it's possible, every car maker can "optimize towards benchmark". Like VW optimizing cars towards benchmark. Doesn't always ends great.

Not sure faking results counts as optimizing cars /shrug

They were not faked. Cars were optimized to behave in a certain way under exact test scenario.

They were not producing any fake output data from the sensors, just "optimizing" engine behavior.

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