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Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

tesla.com

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Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#151

Post by justapassenger »

kjksf wrote: post #146
kenhwang wrote: post #10

I wonder how much of this will translate to real world driving. Teslas have generally significantly underperformed in real world range compared to EPA. This reads very much like they're optimizing more towards a benchmark.

If it's possible, every car maker can "optimize towards benchmark". So is your theory that all car makers except Tesla are dumb and cannot optimize their range for EPA tests? That they are morally superior to Tesla and will sacrifice sales by not optimizing for EPA range but some purported "real world range"? And in what way exactly do you optimize for EPA test? I've seen this "explanation" for superior Tesla results…

> If it's possible, every car maker can "optimize towards benchmark".

Like VW optimizing cars towards benchmark. Doesn't always ends great.

Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#152

Post by 01100011 »

davidwhodge wrote: post #92
steelframe wrote: post #18

I've been following a multi-month discussion over in the r/electricvehicles subreddit about EPA range. There's a growing consensus that something is very wrong with it. Here are a couple of the articles that got some discussion in that sub: https://insideevs.com/news/407807/eletric-car-real-world-ran... https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a30874032/porsche-tayca... As someone who has owned both a Tesla Model X and o…

I make an app (called Nikola, not the truck company) for Tesla owners that has seen over 5 MM miles driven on it. I did some quick queries to validate actual range vs. EPA range for those curious. My general takeaway is to see the EPA range as a useful, albeit unrealistic, indicator. Essentially nobody gets the EPA range, either because they choose not to go the speed limit, they accelerate harder than the EPA test f…

Shower thought: It would be nice if the vehicle 'docked' to the charger at home so you could power everything up and get the climate control working before you disconnected from the grid. It's not going to make a noticable difference in mileage I'm sure, but if there is a surge at power-up I'd rather take the juice from the grid.

Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#153

Post by 10-1-100 »

rootusrootus wrote: post #118
natch wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the fun... you probably drive like I do.

Around town, for sure, but on a road trip with the fam I just set turn on autopilot at 70 and leave it. My wife & kids are not nearly as appreciative of the performance as I am :). But, even at mild temperatures cruising at steady speed on mostly level terrain, I generally see 325 Wh/mi. If I cruise at 75, it's 350 Wh/mi. The rated range can only be achieved by hitting about 250 Wh/mi.

Assuming you have the 20 inch performance wheels (and the Pilot 4S summer tires that come with them), those could be the difference between you getting 325Wh/mi and something more in line with 250-275 at 70mph.

Here's a chart with speed/efficiency measurements for most Tesla model/wheel configurations:

https://teslike.com/

Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#154

Post by NotSammyHagar »

new_realist wrote: post #19
boardwaalk wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Respectfully speaking, if you read to the second sentence, you'd learn the range is an EPA rating.

I think they mean they’re waiting for the EPA to test it themselves. Tesla conducts and self-certifies their own tests, and to my knowledge the EPA has never tested one in their own lab.

That's almost certainly wrong because they had blog posts talking about epa testing.

Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#155

Post by btilly »

davidwhodge wrote: post #92
steelframe wrote: post #18

I've been following a multi-month discussion over in the r/electricvehicles subreddit about EPA range. There's a growing consensus that something is very wrong with it. Here are a couple of the articles that got some discussion in that sub: https://insideevs.com/news/407807/eletric-car-real-world-ran... https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a30874032/porsche-tayca... As someone who has owned both a Tesla Model X and o…

I make an app (called Nikola, not the truck company) for Tesla owners that has seen over 5 MM miles driven on it. I did some quick queries to validate actual range vs. EPA range for those curious. My general takeaway is to see the EPA range as a useful, albeit unrealistic, indicator. Essentially nobody gets the EPA range, either because they choose not to go the speed limit, they accelerate harder than the EPA test f…

What's most striking to me as someone who has heard over and over again about how air resistance is a X^2 property, is the extent to which short (and presumably slow) trips punch above their weight in terms of range consumed per mile. From what I can tell, the actual cost here is the fixed cost of booting up some systems and electronics, and the variable costs of running them over fewer miles can make the MPGe drop. Starting and continuing to run the AC adds up!

Two factors.

First, if you go 10% faster, air resistance may be 21% higher, but you only take 10/11 for spending 10% more energy per mile. So higher speeds cost less than you'd naively think.

Second, at low speeds we start and stop a lot. Coming to a full stop requires actually putting physical brakes on and losing energy. The heavier your car, the more that this costs you. For slower traffic, if you look at distance traveled, number of full stops and energy, I bet that you can fit a linear model in 2 variables that fits the data better and gives you a sense of how much coming to a stop costs you.

Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#156

Post by 10-1-100 »

Someone1234 wrote: post #31
steelframe wrote: post #18

I've been following a multi-month discussion over in the r/electricvehicles subreddit about EPA range. There's a growing consensus that something is very wrong with it. Here are a couple of the articles that got some discussion in that sub: https://insideevs.com/news/407807/eletric-car-real-world-ran... https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a30874032/porsche-tayca... As someone who has owned both a Tesla Model X and o…

I'm surprised Tesla fans haven't crowd sourced accurate data by now.

Apart from going through r/teslamotors or Tesla Motors Club forums (plenty of personal reports on those), here is an aggregation of efficiencies for most Tesla model/wheel configurations at various speeds:

https://teslike.com/

Of course, low temperatures and rain will also tank range.

Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#157

Post by kylecordes »

It's great that Tesla keeps increasing the range, but the EPA numbers are ridiculous. I would love to see the EPA range claims for electric vehicles re-standardized to measure:

* at the median driving speed on free-flowing US interstate highways

* during cold weather

* with some hills

* using a medium level typical of drivers of cars of the price range

A car manufacturer particularly focused on realism could publish a two range values; a lower number as described above, an upper EPA number (perfect conditions, low speed).

Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#158

Post by gok »

steelframe wrote: post #18

I've been following a multi-month discussion over in the r/electricvehicles subreddit about EPA range. There's a growing consensus that something is very wrong with it. Here are a couple of the articles that got some discussion in that sub: https://insideevs.com/news/407807/eletric-car-real-world-ran... https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a30874032/porsche-tayca... As someone who has owned both a Tesla Model X and o…

EPA range is city+highway combined, which isn't really what any most car buyers care about. Range during city driving is irrelevant beyond a point; you're never going to go more than 100 miles per charge. Then the highway test is easy; it never breaks 60 MPH and averages 48 MPH. What most people probably care about is how far you can go between charges when road-tripping, which is really a much more complicated formula involving how quickly you can charge, what the real speed limit is on your local highways, how many high speed chargers are available, etc.

Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#159

Post by 10-1-100 »

leesec wrote: post #122

Man do I love Hackernews. Everyone is pro-innovation, pro-future, pro-forward thinking until literally anything new happens, in which case everyone shows up with a "well, ackshually", to tell you why the new idea is dumb. It's amazing to me that Tesla continues to increase State Of The Art range and EV efficiency, at scale, for cars that already smoke the competition. I hope their fervor to improve the technology nev…

Second this - always surprised by the skepticism towards Tesla. As you say, they are continuing to push the limits of range and performance despite no other EVs having caught up.

As far as I'm concerned, Tesla wouldn't be selling hundreds of thousands of cars if real people weren't able to meet their real range needs with them. Plus, it only takes driving one to understand the appeal :)

Re: Model S Long Range Plus: Building the First 400-Mile Electric Vehicle

#160

Post by caf »

01100011 wrote: post #152
davidwhodge wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I make an app (called Nikola, not the truck company) for Tesla owners that has seen over 5 MM miles driven on it. I did some quick queries to validate actual range vs. EPA range for those curious. My general takeaway is to see the EPA range as a useful, albeit unrealistic, indicator. Essentially nobody gets the EPA range, either because they choose not to go the speed limit, they accelerate harder than the EPA test f…

Shower thought: It would be nice if the vehicle 'docked' to the charger at home so you could power everything up and get the climate control working before you disconnected from the grid. It's not going to make a noticable difference in mileage I'm sure, but if there is a surge at power-up I'd rather take the juice from the grid.

It kinds of does that, because if you start the climate control while plugged in, it'll start drawing from the charger even if charging has already finished.

This is most often seen if you remotely turn on the climate control to warm the car up in the morning, when the car is still plugged in after overnight charging.

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