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After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

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Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#631
post #14

What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. I'm no fan of ICE – a very large percentage of my friends in the US are immigrants, and I generally want my country to be a welcoming one. ICE has certainly committed unethical and probably illegal acts (probably true of most federal agencies). But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a pri…

> But I can't see how this helps improve immigration, and it certainly seems likely to cause a lot of negative consequences for GitHub.

I think I would rather work for a company where they do the right thing, even if it does cause negative consequences.

I understand that you're not convinced that banning ICE from their platform is the right thing, or will even do anything useful around immigration. I don't agree with that point of view, and I expect GH's employees don't either. Ultimately it's up to the company's management to decide who they'd rather to piss off: the US government, or a portion of their own employees.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean this in the nicest possible way; have you ever faced discrimination based on the colour of your skin, gender, sexual orientation, disabilities or anything else which is protected by law in most civilised countries? If, like a significant portion of the HN audience, you are straight, white, middle class and male it's probably easier for you to dismiss the right to fair treatment than it might be for individuals…

I have. And you know what, civil rights laws did jack all to protect me. I'm much happier knowing that the people that operate that business were racist jerks (instead of, say, them being forced to serve me and spit in my food, which would be a health concern), and I have dissuaded probably on the order of a hundred people from going to that place, and that was in the era before social media.

I have had the same experience (although it was not race-based discrimination). Theoretically there were laws to protect me, but, practically, asserting my rights under those laws would have been too costly and time consuming to be worth it.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#633
post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I disagree. I have more of a "live and let live" or "golden rule" type philosophy. I wouldn't want someone denying me service because they disagree with my beliefs (and by extension, actions), so I don't deny service to people who have beliefs (and by extension, actions) I disagree with.

"Live and let live" and "golden rule" are great philosophies to live by. But you still have responsibility when you assist others in doing things, whether you agree or disagree with those things. Otherwise you are ignoring the "let live" part of your own philosophy. For example, someone comes to you asking for your services to help them kill a third person. If you believe in the "let live" part of your philosophy, yo…

> But you still have responsibility when you assist others in doing things, whether you agree or disagree with those things.

Another responsibility that is not given enough weight is the maintenance of a civil non-polarized society.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GP didn't say they should be required to work with certain entities, only that it could jeopardize their stance with other, less controversial, entities.

Source code is a company’s Crown Jewels. Who can take the risk that their business will be shut down because an employee tweeted something 8 years ago that is now out of favour? At least Git by it’s very nature protects you but you would still have your issue tracker and CICD pipeline held to ransom.

It's GitHub. As in git. If losing GitHub makes you lose your source code, you're gitting it wrong.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was more specific than that: a cake shop participates directly in the creative effort with the client in the way a software service provider does not.

Software service providers certainly do implement features requested directly by clients.

This seems like a difference between like Palantir working on specific projects for ICE (I made this up) vs Github providing a platform that ICE uses.

IMO the former is more objectionable than the latter.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#636
post #14

What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. I'm no fan of ICE – a very large percentage of my friends in the US are immigrants, and I generally want my country to be a welcoming one. ICE has certainly committed unethical and probably illegal acts (probably true of most federal agencies). But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a pri…

How would you feel if you know your work is being used to facilitate what is described in this video: https://youtu.be/mRUxDNE8uzc?t=36 ?

They're incarcerating newborns and forcing unrelated 5 year old detainees with no relation to them to take care of them. They smell, they're covered in lice, bodily fluids, they're denied personal hygiene, food, water. They are forced to drink water from toilets.

Kids that are too active are sedated and some of them, left unsupervised causing them to smash their heads against the floor causing them permanent brain damage.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#638
post #601

> I think if the bar is "don't kill minorities" Take this as my personal possibly wrong opinion, but this kind hyperbolic phrasing is only going to hurt your cause. The same as people defending "punch a nazi" slogans. They will give your tribe influence, but also steadily decrease your chance at long term victory. Honestly I cannot understand how many people (I don't care about sides) can believe in progress via viol…

I support punching nazis too. I consider that moderate, given that the nazi ideology involves much worse.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#639
post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are in favor (or in the process) of putting large groups of people who have not directly harmed anyone in concentration camps, separating them from their families, keeping children in cages etc, THEN you are considered a racist authoritarian almost akin to mid 1940's Germany.

My position on immigration has been the same for decades. 1. All persons that are not a danger to others and can prove financial viability (i.e they have a job sponsorship, or other means of self support with out needing social welfare) should be allowed to immigrate on a temporary basis 2. The Immigration process should be limited to only establishment of ID to clear a person from known dangers (i.e medical, crimina…

Separating parents from their kids is one thing. Neglecting kids and denying them water, food, and not facilitating any form of basic hygiene is another thing.

Children covered in lice, bodily fluids, without showering for weeks to months. Newborns being taken care of by 5 year old detainees with no relation. They are denied food and water. They are forced to drink water from toilets. They're scared to ask for food and water [1].

Then, let me introduce you: The Mexican Repatriation Act of 1929. If your argument is that citizens need to be protected, I remind you that in 1929, the US government took US-born children of Mexican heritage (technically, US nationals), put them in buses, and sent them to Mexico. In total, up to 4,000,000 Mexicans and their US born descendants were victims of this.

It is possible that some the families being detained and separated are descendants of US citizens. But nobody cares, you know why? because it's not about citizenship and immigration. It has never been about that. It's about making bullshit excuses for racism and ethnic cleansing. Before the Mexican annexation it was done to the Native Americans, and for them there were other excuses as well.

The US has set a strong precedent about not giving a flying fuck about borders, immigration and sovereignty. What did American immigrants in Tejas, Mexico do? or Alta California, Mexico? or the Kingdom of Hawaii? or countless other territories? They were given land grants and instead of being grateful, they revolted, declared independence and then joined the Union because they were not allowed to have slaves, or because they saw themselves as entitled to those lands. Lands that they had no connection to whatsoever.

Before the US existed, their predecessors, the British empire, had other races to discriminate. Basically every other nation including other nations in the British Isles. That mentality led them to invade 99% of the planet and kill millions of people through wars, famine, etc.

In contrast, the ancestors of the families being detained are the populations that have inhabited North America for 10,000 years. Not a couple of centuries. 10,000 fucking years.

[1] https://youtu.be/mRUxDNE8uzc?t=36

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very roundabout way to say "Americans have a comfortably whitewashed, frankly ignorant version of reality and everybody else should walk on eggshells to help them maintain it". Concentration camps were not solely the purview of the Nazis, and already had quite the history before they even came on the scene. In fact, while we're on the topic of World War II, the US government held people of Japanese decent in…

FWIW, I think you're being needlessly antagonistic. I'm trying to help the misunderstanding between Europeans and Americans on this issue (and leveling criticism against people using the term in a certain way in the American context —ICE is an American government agency, after all). Different cultures use words to mean different things. And I can tell you that, in the American context, concentration camp = Nazis kill…

But does the phrase internment camp actually bring to mind abuses such as denying children hygiene supplies such as toothbrushes or basic necessities like blankets in an American reader? The separation of families? The disappearance of children?

If internment camp does not convey that then I think using a technically correct term such as concentration camp to ensure that people pay attention to these abuses is not just technically correct it actually conveys that this is more than "just" an internment camp.

If Americans do generally associate internment camp with that then fair enough call them internment camps in general conversation.

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