Live data from Hacker News

After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

latimes.com

581–590 of 841 posts

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, but I would rather live in a society that has full respect for people than full respect for private property.

Unfortunately you can't make everyone have respect for one another. If you force them via laws, that would probably just make them more resentful.

That is completely true, indeed the purpose of the law ought to be not to compel respect, but to allow vulnerable individuals access to society.

The intended outcome is not that people that want to discriminate stop existing (well, long term also...) but that non-discriminatory interactions can be allowed to flourish.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#582
post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are in favor (or in the process) of putting large groups of people who have not directly harmed anyone in concentration camps, separating them from their families, keeping children in cages etc, THEN you are considered a racist authoritarian almost akin to mid 1940's Germany.

My position on immigration has been the same for decades. 1. All persons that are not a danger to others and can prove financial viability (i.e they have a job sponsorship, or other means of self support with out needing social welfare) should be allowed to immigrate on a temporary basis 2. The Immigration process should be limited to only establishment of ID to clear a person from known dangers (i.e medical, crimina…

> 3. Social Welfare programs should be limited to Citizens Only. Persons can apply for Citizenship after they have lived here for 3 yrs under the temporary immigration program.

How to you handle underclass, i.e. people who become disabled or injured, move into a recession, can't meet the initial requirements, or some reason to not comply. With your requirement #1, #3 seems cruel. In most countries a work permit gets you basic access to the same welfare and worker protections (usually statutory retirement, unemployment insurance, health care) for this exact reason.

> If you break the law you will be separated from your family

Really depends what law you have broken, doesn't it? Under US immigration law crossing the border at the wrong place is punishable by $250 fine (8 U.S.C. Section 1325, I.N.A. Section 275). Many traffic violations have stricter penalties.

In early 2017 the Trump administration stopped accepting asylum applications at ports of entry and required asylum seekers to apply in the country (contrary to law). In April 2018 ICE started separating families of asylum seekers who had committed the grievous act of a) crossing the border b) requesting asylum from the first US official they encountered (a condition explicitly allowed in US asylum law)

> keeping children in cages ... 3 different presidents now

I think that's a false equivalency. The fucked up stuff ICE got away with under Obama is not the same as the fucked up shit Trump has given the green light to. The Trump admin is actively violating US immigration law to for no other apparent reason than a simple desire to be cruel to asylum seekers. https://www.thisamericanlife.org/688/the-out-crowd

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is that someone else will realize there is now an under-served market, and create a business to fulfill that need. That is a childishly simplistic understanding of how free markets work. There is no way a retail business would be established to service the needs of 2% of the population who are wheelchair users for example, when they could easily make their stores considerably more efficient by making the aisles a l…

If someone can still get groceries without physically going into the store, is it still discrimination?

I've had to deal with such issues a little.

Whether it's the kind of discrimination the store is obliged to deal with is going to come down to principles of reasonable accomodation.

So, say you had an extremely boutique store up some rickety stairs, where the way it's used is you go up the stairs and meet the chef who will take your order for a wedding cake and you can collect the cake next week.

I would expect, in that case, if the chef is willing to meet you at your home or another place with a menu of options and discuss your order, and then have it delivered next week, that would meet the bar of reasonable accomodation for someone who couldn't use the rickety stairs.

On the other hand, a large grocery store, where browsing the goods is part of the experience and is also significant to product discovery, and maybe pricing and access to better fresh ingredients and different bargains, and where the only obstacle is that the store does not replace one door type with another that a wheelchair user can enter, and the store can reasonably afford the cost, that is clearly inadequate of the store; they have no good excuse and could reasonably accomodate by changing that door.

On another hand, the same large grocery store may find it difficult to accomodate people who cannot tolerate bright illumination (that other people need, to see clearly), and large numbers of people moving around them. In that case, it is not at all obvious that the store can do much to accomodate. I would expect that if the store also provides online ordering with delivery, that it has performed reasonable accomodation for that situation.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#584
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is born an ICE employee.

Whether you are "born gay" is up for debate as well. There are many instances of people "changing their minds" on their sexuality: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Spacey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_Dodson

I vouched for this comment for a very specific reason: Civil rights of for the LGBT should not predicated on "being born that way", they should be predicated on the fact that it is an acceptable and dignified way to be human.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This goes way too far in limiting freedom IMO. It makes sense to not let people discriminate on things that are immutable (like skin color), but it's crazy to not let discrimination happen on things that are a choice. Just like I can decide not to let people not wearing shoes or shirts into my business, why shouldn't I be able to deny entry to a neo-Nazi? What if I'm losing black customers because I have racists regu…

So do you think religious discrimination is acceptable?

Religion is a protected class, so the question is moot under US law.

In any case, I confess I'm always a little suspicious of this method of argument. Bob says, "I will ban neo-Nazis from my forum," and people chime in with, "Well, what about banning Catholics? Vegetarians? People who admit to liking Nickelback?". Is the principle really that if we find one single case where Bob would admit "I don't think banning that group makes any sense," then Bob needs to just give up and let neo-Nazis on his forum? Personally, I don't think that's a very good principle. An argument about where we (and Bob) should draw the line is reasonable, but I'm not convinced an argument about whether lines are intrinsically evil is.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#586
post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a your version of a free society, what happens when everyone refuses you EVERY single service because random-reason ? They sure as heck aren't murdering, stealing, nor threatening you. They're just refusing to sell you anything because of random-reason , forever. Those services include sales of any food, water, shelter. Taking it further, what if a majority of businesses gradually decide to be racist and refuse al…

> what happens when everyone refuses you EVERY single service If I'll ever find my self in a situation like this - I'll pack my things and run. I'm not going to be happy in a place like this even if government will force those people to tolerate me. > if a majority of businesses gradually decide to be racist and refuse all services just because they can That means anyone entrepreneurial enough will have access to an…

> I'm not going to be happy in a place like this even if government will force those people to tolerate me.

This is an important point that those in disagreement with these kind of arguments often under-emphasize or ignore entirely. When a government makes it illegal to behave in a racist way, the racists don't go away, and they might even be amplified within those communities in a similar way to the Streisand effect.

If everyone in a community is racist, you can't simply make it illegal to be racist to fix the problem. They have to make that decision on their own - anything else is fundamentally authoritarianism, which doesn't have a great history of long-term success.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What alternative proposals do you have for dealing with people who've unlawfully crossed the border? If your answer is "let them live freely in the US", I think it's fair to characterize that as a a call for open borders.

Personally, I don't think open borders are unthinkable, but I am not necessarily for them either. However, the deportation process must be humane. You can detain people who are to be deported in conditions that respect their human rights. You can allow parents of small children with US citizenship to take their children with them (assuming both parents are deported), or to make other arrangements. The two alternative…

Sure, and I think you can get most people on board with the principles of "people in deportation holding should have good conditions", and "parents should be able to keep their kids in deportation holding". But such moderate reforms won't satisfy most people who talk about concentration camps; many people (including multiple in this very comments section) mean that it's simply intolerable for illegal immigration detention centers to exist.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#588
post #88
post #14

What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. I'm no fan of ICE – a very large percentage of my friends in the US are immigrants, and I generally want my country to be a welcoming one. ICE has certainly committed unethical and probably illegal acts (probably true of most federal agencies). But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a pri…

>> I can't see how this helps improve immigration, In many ways it does the opposite, for reforms to work you need to build coalitions from all political segments of society, vilifying political opponents (the ones that believe in some kind of immigration control and do not support fully open borders) does not build that coalition that is need to fight the unethical and illegal acts. Instead it puts people on the def…

> vilifying political opponents (the ones that believe in some kind of immigration control and do not support fully open borders)

The only vilification happening here is your misrepresentation of the critics of ICE, many of whom do not advocate for "open borders".

ICE is not equivalent to "border security", which should be obvious when you consider that this agency was only created in 2002.

ICE doesn't even work at the border. That's the Border Patrol (and customs, and the Coast Guard).

ICE exclusively works within the US. Since illegal immigrants have little protection, it acts much like any unchecked police force, at least according to its critics.

There were 1,200 complaints of sexual assault in ICE custody[0], for example. Less than 2% of these were investigated[1], proving the point about them acting "largely unchecked" that I somehow felt the need to qualify with "according to its critics", above, before looking this up.

From 2012 to early 2018, ICE wrongfully arrested and detained 1,488 U.S. citizens, including many who spent months or years in immigration detention.[2]

Since it isn't particularly hard to find illegal immigrants in the US, ICE also has a lot of liberty to decide who to go after. That's a recipe for arbitrary enforcement, and there have been complaints about individuals, families, neighbourhoods, or cities being targeted or a variety of reasons, none of which fit most people's idea of justice, from shakedown collecting money from individuals in exchange for sparing them harassment to cities being targeted after incurring the wrath of the current government.

[0]: https://theintercept.com/2018/04/11/immigration-detention-se...

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_E...

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_E...

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#589
post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To some extent, yes. The economy exists for the benefit of humanity and not the other way around. The question is: does the automation help us build things that were impossible before, or does it exist for the sole purpose of cutting jobs and funneling more money to the executives?

IMO what actually needs to be done is tax on automation that would directly fund universal income. That would actually help humanity.

How exactly are you going to measure what is automation? Even something as basic as making a function rather than copy-pasting code is automation.Where do you draw the line? Who is going to measure this?

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#590
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"By accepting the ICE contract previously it was political." Just a reminder that government entities like ICE are executing the current laws of the land.

And who writes the laws of the land? Slavery and Jim Crow were also laws at certain periods of American history. I'd hope it's pretty uncontroversial to say that those laws were also very divisive political issues at the time.

Correct. Not all laws are good or morally acceptable, and they need to be changed.

If Github was to pull out, ICE could simply find someone else willing to sign a contract with them, except it will make things worse, as that other provider will not be as diligent or reliable (if it was just as good, it would have been picked in the first place instead of Github).

When you see an unjust law, it should be pushed to get changed. Back when gay marriage was illegal, it made more sense to push for its legislation, instead of providers refusing service to state governments where it was illegal. People need to protest, call their elected officials, sign petitions, etc. Most importantly, people need to regularly vote, not just during general presidential elections.

That has nothing to do with Github. As a customer, I want to be confident that my service won't get terminated for some arbitrary reason, as long as I obey terms of service and don't break any laws. Giving providers the ability to cancel my service due to random whims in their workforce isn't something that I want to see in tech.

Post reply on HN