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After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

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Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#291

Post by akerro »

amcoastal wrote: post #219
akerro wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Guess what? Politics are interwoven in every aspect of our lives. Yes, but also companies exist literally only to make money. Companies can't exist without workers. Once a company finds itself in a position of conflict of interest between political views of workers and point of existence of the company - where contracts bring money... we're going to see interesting things. I wonder, who will break first? The company…

So you don't agree with employees disagreeing with their company hosting code or developing tools for the Chinese government to run their concentration camps? Like the parent says, being non-political IS being political. You cannot separate it. What is so bad about employees at a company having a say in what type of work the company does?

>What is so bad about employees at a company having a say in what type of work the company does?

No, I don't think there is anything wrong with it, that's how we can change direction of the company and produce good. I think that's a very problematic path filled with mine-lands where employees decide how company makes money. GitHub can just outsource this project to Russia, Australia or India, still make money and deliver the project. Silencing voiced of those who speak, but still, being on a path of conflict of interests between board members and workers.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#292

Post by nemetroid »

overgard wrote: post #237
shaggyfrog wrote: post #77

There are a few comments in here already decrying “politicization”. Guess what? Politics are interwoven in every aspect of our lives. You cannot choose to “avoid” them; even suggesting you can be politically neutral is a political stance that comes from a place of privilege, because only the privileged can avoid experiencing negative political consequences inside their bubble. Collaboration with ICE is collaboration…

So who decides? Do companies now need a chief political officer? Do they do some sort of political review of each new customer? What issues do they use to decide on? Do they deny Apple or Nike because of overseas labour conditions? IMO it's foolish for a company to wade into these waters at all unless activism is part of their brand. If you signal you're going to take a stand it ends up having to be around everything…

> Or you could just sell software tools to people who pay for them.

Yes, that’s one of the (political) options.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#293

Post by 99_00 »

When people say they back Black Lives Matter, what does it mean? Is it real support for actual demands or symbolic and emotional support?

According to wikipedia these are BLM's policy demands:

Policy demands In 2016, Black Lives Matter and a coalition of 60 organizations affiliated with BLM called for decarceration in the United States, reparations for slavery in the United States, an end to mass surveillance, investment in public education, not incarceration, and community control of the police: empowering residents in communities of color to hire and fire police officers and issue subpoenas, decide disciplinary consequences and exercise control over city funding of police.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Lives_Matter#Policy_dema...

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#294

Post by [deleted] »

jobeirne wrote: post #48
rattray wrote: post #14

What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. I'm no fan of ICE – a very large percentage of my friends in the US are immigrants, and I generally want my country to be a welcoming one. ICE has certainly committed unethical and probably illegal acts (probably true of most federal agencies). But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a pri…

> But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a private entity, especially for essentially political reasons, is lunacy. Um, think you've got this backwards. Private entities shouldn't have to take on anyone they don't want as customers (for whatever reason - do you have to justify who you do or don't want in your livingroom?), but publicly-funded institutions shouldn't be able to deny service o…

[deleted]

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#295

Post by jjice »

sprsimplestuff wrote: post #250
jjice wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a direct reply to your comment, but more of an adjacent one. > Guess what? Politics are interwoven in every aspect of our lives. You cannot choose to “avoid” them; But I do choose to avoid them in my personal life. A private company can do whatever the hell they want, whether I approve or not, it's their right. I also believe it is my right to not care about politics and continue moving forward with my own life.…

I hope you're aware that being able to ignore politics is a privilege that you're consciously utilizing. Some people will get affected by "politics" and, thus, must either be silent and suffer or start to care about politics. I could be wrong and politics do impact you negatively and...you just don't care. That's a fair stance I guess, as long as you understand that by doing nothing you're essentially accepting that…

You're completely right. I've very fortunate, and that does give me the ability to ignore certain things. I make sure to have an understanding of what is going on, and my active ignorance is more of a way to avoid things I'm already aware of, where my knowledge of the event doesn't help progress anything.

The example that pops in my head first is COVID. I knew what was going on with COVID and how to keep myself and others safe. My issue was that it was circulating everything 24/7, while not offering new information the vast majority of the time. It became very anxiety inducing to see a ton of articles every day that end up just being filler with tangential evidence of nothing new.

But you're completely correct, I'm very fortunate, and I should have clarified more on where and when I choose to ignore certain things.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#296

Post by lurknn »

wvenable wrote: post #254
lurknn wrote: post #99

If working with ICE is so reprehensible, why are none of these employees taking advantage of their in-demand skillset and moving on to companies that better respect their values? I'm sympathetic with those who point out that corporations typically have more leverage than individual employees, and that changing jobs is not so easy for those who are less privileged. That category, though, of "less privileged" with rega…

Isn't this the same argument as "If you hate America so much why don't you just leave"? Don't employees have more power to change their employer if they are still employees?

I agree that employees have the power to change their employer, I merely am pointing out a potential other option that I rarely see discussed. Github is one thing, and an organization that I think is better than most, I think I was mainly thinking of other equivalents, like Facebook, which has _never_ been anything but reprehensible, and yet employees try to believe in this "change from inside" narrative. At a certain point, it is only self-delusion.

To be honest, I dislike America, and do plan to leave it in the next couple of years. I've always considered it a reasonable option :)

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#297

Post by oh_sigh »

karpierz wrote: post #73
Fellshard wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a big strain of consequentialism running through the modern left - no neutral service is held as neutral if it permits the 'wrong' customers.

Suppose that: 1. You provide tools to a group. 2. You believe (in a informed way) that the group intends to act immorally. 3. Your tools will make the group more effective at acting immorally. Do you have any responsibility for what happens?

If you do have that responsibility, then a huge swath of open source developers in the world are guilty of abetting pedophiles, rapists, and terrorists.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#298

Post by tsimionescu »

NE2z2T9qi wrote: post #264
seph-reed wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but with power comes responsibility. The poor little CEOs are going to have to recognize that their decisions have consequences, and those consequences must be thought through. They don't just get to play Capitalist without any repercussions because they call themselves non-political. If you have power, you are responsible for what happens with it. It's not just free money.

And if you don't get your way, what's next? Shutting off ICE employee's water, electricity, and telephone service? And why not kick them out of their apartments too since sheltering an ICE officer helps enable them.

No one is going for ICE employees, at least in this thread. They are proposing going against ICE as an institution.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#299

Post by google234123 »

phoe-krk wrote: post #177
Foxheart wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"... and Black folk are still much more likely to die during police interventions." Care to link to a source?

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793 From Significance, right at the top: "(...) Black women and men and American Indian and Alaska Native women and men are significantly more likely than white women and men to be killed by police. Latino men are also more likely to be killed by police than are white men."

The fact is that police shootings of unarmed African-Americans are still only 0.1% of all African-Americans killed. There are studies that find that no racial differences in lethal uses of force: https://www.nber.org/papers/w22399.pdf

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#300

Post by chasing »

deadalus wrote: post #235
chasing wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, but also companies exist literally only to make money. False.

Shareholders don't want to make money? That's not their primary goal?

“Primary” != “only.”

“Shareholders” != “only people with a stake in a company existing.”

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